The decline of the professional

The decline of the professional

Author
Discussion

fridaypassion

8,504 posts

227 months

Monday 3rd December 2018
quotequote all
SVS said:
Surely an aversion to credit is a good thing?
Not necessarily at all in fact it's one of the most annoying bits of utter BS that is repeated ad nauseam on this forum. That can be the view of people that are privileged or whatever but as a working class lad with absolutely zero bank of mum and dad I couldn't have built up my business without it. There are plenty of very good reasons to use credit effectively as most successful and wealthy people do.

You see people wafting about in a fancy range rover or BMW on a PCP it may well be perfectly affordable for them but if you are that guy who won't take an agreement out but puts up with an old banger that could affect how you are benchmarking your perceived success. Ditto some kind of refusal to take on a certain size mortgage etc. Everyone's situation is different. Back when I was employed on the books I earned about the same as my colleagues but I was the only one with a flash motor. A lot of people from what I saw were terrible with money and were always skint despite being on a decent wage and living as we do in the North with still pretty affordable housing. We were on mid 30s type salaries 5-8 years ago this is so the lads now are probably on approaching 40k.

In fact my old job is a bit pertinent here as I was one of those hideous people that called themselves an Engineer despite not having any qualifications (tsssk) I was in electronic security. As it's low voltage it's not really regulated so didn't require any part P etc. Quite a smart area to get into as you will find companies willing to pay decent money if you are of a higher level of technical ability as I was as the industry is full of people with limited ability and a lack of willingness to push themselves.

I'm constantly amazed at the threads that pop up on here of intelligent people with good degrees that are earning under 40k per year. It's a terrible return on investment against the cost. There is a decline in the value of all higher level qualifications so the decline of the professional generally feeds into that. Unless something changes over the next 10 years I will support my kids if they want to go through higher education but would not push that agenda one bit unless they knew 100% what they wanted to do with it.

SVS

3,824 posts

270 months

Monday 3rd December 2018
quotequote all
It’s one thing to use credit to grow a business or buy a house.

Surely these aren’t the same as buying stuff on credit to bolster a lifestyle?

fridaypassion

8,504 posts

227 months

Monday 3rd December 2018
quotequote all
Depends on your situation. Funding something frivolous that is in reality beyond your means is bad. Using credit because you can make better use of the capital I don't see a problem.

Olivera

7,068 posts

238 months

Monday 3rd December 2018
quotequote all
This might be a relevant anecdote for this thread.

So today I was helping a friend collect a new (second hand) car in the lake district.

Seller was a lovely elderly chap who used to work as a lubrication engineer (chartered engineer) for a large oil company in the UK.

Took early retirement at 50 (over 30 years ago) to persue outdoor hobbies. Lives in the best part of a million quid house in the most scenic location overlooking the fells, which he bought back in the day for a few dozen grand.

MC Bodge

21,552 posts

174 months

Tuesday 4th December 2018
quotequote all
Olivera said:
This might be a relevant anecdote for this thread.

So today I was helping a friend collect a new (second hand) car in the lake district.

Seller was a lovely elderly chap who used to work as a lubrication engineer (chartered engineer) for a large oil company in the UK.

Took early retirement at 50 (over 30 years ago) to persue outdoor hobbies. Lives in the best part of a million quid house in the most scenic location overlooking the fells, which he bought back in the day for a few dozen grand.
Very early retirement/downsizing with big incentives, generous pensions and cheap properties appear to have been a short lived phenomenon. That man may have just been in the right place at the right time (and may have inherited too).

A Low-mid level engineering employee (not contractor) in most industries has never been wealthy. Certainly not "2x E-class" + 2x expensive foreign family holidays per year and definitely not in 1980.

ToothbrushMan

1,770 posts

124 months

Tuesday 4th December 2018
quotequote all
Smiler. said:


5 years ago this week.

RIP
Good old william bodie ! Nice thread side show!

as you were......

xx99xx

1,892 posts

72 months

Tuesday 4th December 2018
quotequote all
Public sector is crying out for chartered engineers. Engineers don't seem to fancy public sector because private sector pay more. However, a chartered engineer can easily start on £35k in public sector and probably land a promotion to £45k after a year or 2. Not bad when you consider all the other financial e.g. pension (and non financial) benefits e.g. flexitime, fixed contracted hours, work life balance, etc of public sector

Evanivitch

19,803 posts

121 months

Tuesday 4th December 2018
quotequote all
xx99xx said:
Public sector is crying out for chartered engineers. Engineers don't seem to fancy public sector because private sector pay more. However, a chartered engineer can easily start on £35k in public sector and probably land a promotion to £45k after a year or 2. Not bad when you consider all the other financial e.g. pension (and non financial) benefits e.g. flexitime, fixed contracted hours, work life balance, etc of public sector
As a non-chartered engineer with less than 10 years experience I find those numbers pretty crap.

eliot

11,364 posts

253 months

Tuesday 4th December 2018
quotequote all
Thankyou4calling said:
An average salary in 2018 is less than £30,000 though so i think if you were earning £15,000 you’d be doing well in 1986.
In 1989 at the age of 19 i earned £10,250 and bought a 3 bed end of terrace for £60k - encouraged by my father because house prices were ‘ shooting up’ - they crashed a year later and had to wait 10 years for it to recover - I sold the house for.... £60k

So yes I had to take out a 6x mortgage and it was hand to mouth for a few years. But of course we had it easy back then and the kids today have it rough...

Er no... like then and now you have to graft and work very hard and things get better eventually.



Evanivitch

19,803 posts

121 months

Tuesday 4th December 2018
quotequote all
eliot said:
In 1989 at the age of 19 i earned £10,250 and bought a 3 bed end of terrace for £60k - encouraged by my father because house prices were ‘ shooting up’ - they crashed a year later and had to wait 10 years for it to recover - I sold the house for.... £60k

So yes I had to take out a 6x mortgage and it was hand to mouth for a few years. But of course we had it easy back then and the kids today have it rough...

Er no... like then and now you have to graft and work very hard and things get better eventually.
You were earning the equivalent of £25,000 a year at 19? There are people with masters degrees that don't earn that these days.

I think the lesson of your story is that 6x mortgages are stupid.

RizzoTheRat

25,085 posts

191 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
As a non-chartered engineer with less than 10 years experience I find those numbers pretty crap.
The public sector job will be 37 hours a week including coffee breaks though biggrin

Are public sector pensions still any good compared to private sector though? When I left 16 years ago they'd already stopped the final salary pensions, and I've since done contract work for the same organisation and quite a few people were moaning about pensions.

Evanivitch

19,803 posts

121 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
RizzoTheRat said:
The public sector job will be 37 hours a week including coffee breaks though biggrin

Are public sector pensions still any good compared to private sector though? When I left 16 years ago they'd already stopped the final salary pensions, and I've since done contract work for the same organisation and quite a few people were moaning about pensions.
My friend who works for DfT gets something around 20% employer contributions for his pension. He's not an engineer but his salary is similar to mine.

As much as 37 hours rigidly with no overtime sounds great, it also seems pretty inflexible when you have travel and field testing opportunities.

GT03ROB

13,208 posts

220 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
You were earning the equivalent of £25,000 a year at 19? There are people with masters degrees that don't earn that these days.

I think the lesson of your story is that 6x mortgages are stupid.
That probably also says as much at the quality of the education system these days that is just focussed on churning out graduates & masters students without a focus on what industry needs.

GT03ROB

13,208 posts

220 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
eliot said:
In 1989 at the age of 19 i earned £10,250 and bought a 3 bed end of terrace for £60k - encouraged by my father because house prices were ‘ shooting up’ - they crashed a year later and had to wait 10 years for it to recover - I sold the house for.... £60k

So yes I had to take out a 6x mortgage and it was hand to mouth for a few years. But of course we had it easy back then and the kids today have it rough...

Er no... like then and now you have to graft and work very hard and things get better eventually.
How the fk did you get a 6x mortgage back then?? They simply were not available. It was 3x max & you had to be lucky to get that! Rest of what you said I agree with the sentiment!

CzechItOut

2,154 posts

190 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
What makes you say "universities are tailored more today towards industry than they have ever been"?

There seems to be more graduates than ever, yet companies are still experiencing huge skill shortages as graduates either have the wrong degrees or simply aren't attracted to certain industries.

RJG46

980 posts

67 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
visitinglondon said:
Sparkzz said:
visitinglondon said:
To me, a professional is someone who got a degree and can use apostrophes.

I think that is where your problem lies ...
Fortunately, that isn't the definition.
Do you have an engineering degree? If not, what enables you to describe yourself as an engineer (rather than, say, a technician)?
What a knobber. My other half is a rather well paid Civil Engineer despite only getting an HNC from the University of Teesside. And she knows how to use an apostrophe.

OP, do you live on your own or have someone else bringing in money?

Did you overstretch yourself on the mortgage?


fridaypassion

8,504 posts

227 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
You were earning the equivalent of £25,000 a year at 19? There are people with masters degrees that don't earn that these days.
Crazy. It probably deserves it's own thread but it would be interesting to see what salary people with degrees have vs those without. At 25k you could literally earn 2x that selling Audis at a main dealer and you wouldn't be the top sales guy at that level either. With tuition fees and what seems for the majority to be pretty poor prospects why are more young people not looking at alternatives? Conditioning at school?

super7

1,922 posts

207 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
Degree's are not worth what they used to be..... likewise A levels and GCSE's....

Back in the 80's when I was at school, an A grade in 'A' level maths meant you were the brain box of the year. I cannot for one minute see how anyone can compare a grade A today with one awarded back in the 80's/90's.

Degree's are pretty much worthless now unless you get a first. Your better off taking an apprenticeship and earning some money rather than racking up 20k's worth of debt you'll never pay off! A 2.1 / 2.2 degree these days will just about get you a job in Sainsburys stacking shelves, if they'll have you? A degree is not a ticket to higher earnings anymore, just average earnings and a lot of debt.

As to the decline of the professional, to be a professional, you need to earn it via experience and skill. It doesn't fall in your lap. Just because you a) have a degree b) It's in engineering c) your 'Chartered' does not instantly make you a professional with a right to above average earnings and the 'Lifestyle'.

Nick_13

50 posts

91 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
eliot said:
In 1989 at the age of 19 i earned £10,250 and bought a 3 bed end of terrace for £60k - encouraged by my father because house prices were ‘ shooting up’ - they crashed a year later and had to wait 10 years for it to recover - I sold the house for.... £60k

So yes I had to take out a 6x mortgage and it was hand to mouth for a few years. But of course we had it easy back then and the kids today have it rough...

Er no... like then and now you have to graft and work very hard and things get better eventually.
Not saying you had it easy but I struggle to see the comparison. What part of the country do you live in?

I live in the south east and a 2 bet flat in my town is 225-275k.
A 3 bed end of terrace house is c.£350-400k.
From my experience the average 19 year old is earning around 18-20k?
- Therefore to compare to the property you suggest the average 19 year old would need to borrow close to 18-20 times there salary with a years salary already saved up as a deposit. (before you calculate stamp, solicitors and other moving fees).

Add on costs that I assume you wouldn't of had at the time you moved out such as mobile phone, broadband and huge increases in insurance costs, prices of a meal out and a pint of lager increasing. I know you will argue that these are a luxury but to be honest in 2018 internet and mobile contact are fairly much a requirement for the majority of people - emails, work from home, applying for jobs, utilities, contact with employers etc

I do not feel hard done by at all but it does seem on my fag packet math's that it is much harder these days. It is a fact that for the first time, the youngest generation are being handed a worse deal than the generation before!

GT03ROB

13,208 posts

220 months

Wednesday 5th December 2018
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I disagree, look at the sheer numbers come out of the "university" system. Look at the jobs graduates are taking. The salaries available bear testimony to the fact they are taking "lower" jobs than previously & the fact there are more of them. Many jobs being taken by grads these days would have been taken by people coming out of technical colleges. Like for like grad jobs are paying similar to what they always have (adjusted for wage inflation).