Compensation Offer following grievance at work

Compensation Offer following grievance at work

Author
Discussion

lenny007

Original Poster:

1,338 posts

220 months

Wednesday 24th April 2019
quotequote all
Thank you one and all for replying. In order of post;

FocusRS3 - i appreciate you PM'd me a while back but that was to an old e-mail address i have no access to. PH have now changed it to my current one. I also PM'd you but it would appear you haven't received them. It would be great to speak in person on this matter.

WhatHappenedThere - the one thing this is for us is business. My wife had a hell of a time in their employment and there were times it was purely emotional turmoil. Now she is away from the place, she's a different person. There's no stress in this situation for us - it's pretty much a side issue, albeit one which has our attention when it's needed.

Also, not sure what the purpose of an SAR would be?

PeteMurphy - will ask the wife to download them in case they are needed. Thanks for the tip.

Sa Calobra - so far, we've been more than reasonable timewise with them and that has stopped now. They've had their time of dragging their heels and being in charge of the timescale and process and now it's our turn to apply a bit of pressure on them.

Our thoughts in this were to appear as reasonable as we could to resolve this without getting anyone else involved, in case this had to go to a tribunal. The company have applied timescales to responses, then ignored them and attempted to pressurize us into making decisions quickly. The only thing it has done is to show that they are ignoring / in breach of the ACAS guidelines / procedures for this situation.

The one thing i read on the internet which has stuck with me all through this is to let the employer do a lot of the early running as more often than not, they will make mistakes which will make things worse for them. It certainly seems like that in this case.

JasandJules - i'm expecting the appeal will be following the findings of the investigation to be submitted within about an hour! At that point, we'll be contacting ACAS to start the ball rolling on that part of the process.

I think the company believe we'll roll over before it goes too far - they are mistaken.

I've also checked the home insurance and we do have Legal Expenses cover. I'll be contacting the insurers over the weekend to start that side also.

Once again - many thanks to you all for contributing.

superlightr

12,842 posts

262 months

Wednesday 24th April 2019
quotequote all
To add another dimension - as an employer we had an employee leave and claim constructive dismissal a number of years ago with a help of a solicitors acting on their behalf.

We made an offer to settle ie just to get rid of it. Think it was 3x mths salary. the ex/ee wanted something like 9x+ legal fees. Our offer was rejected.

We went to an tribunal and the ex-employee lost - it was found not in her favour. She got nothing and was very upset at this apparent injustice.
Needless to say we were happy with the apparent justice served although cost us some legal fees.

I don't know anything about the rights and wrongs of your wife's dispute and don't doubt you at all - just putting that there is the chance of not getting the result you want and having your own legal fees to pay.




lenny007

Original Poster:

1,338 posts

220 months

Wednesday 24th April 2019
quotequote all
superlightr said:
To add another dimension - as an employer we had an employee leave and claim constructive dismissal a number of years ago with a help of a solicitors acting on their behalf.

We made an offer to settle ie just to get rid of it. Think it was 3x mths salary. the ex/ee wanted something like 9x+ legal fees. Our offer was rejected.

We went to an tribunal and the ex-employee lost - it was found not in her favour. She got nothing and was very upset at this apparent injustice.
Needless to say we were happy with the apparent justice served although cost us some legal fees.

I don't know anything about the rights and wrongs of your wife's dispute and don't doubt you at all - just putting that there is the chance of not getting the result you want and having your own legal fees to pay.
To be honest (and in true PH tradition) i run my own business so i've been looking at this process from both ends! I've also been involved in legal cases over the last few years where despite the belief being "we can't lose this", the case has been lost on a technicality - lack of signature on documents, that sort of "minor" thing.

As such, i know nothing is won until it's won. My belief was that they would settle prior to court - and that is still my belief. If they'd made a "reasonable" offer - such as they offer 3 months salary, we ask for 9 and settle on 6 (based on your own example) - this would be over and done with pretty much but they didn't so it isn't.

There is still some movement in this situation to come before ACAS gets involved.

Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Wednesday 24th April 2019
quotequote all
lenny007 said:
I've also checked the home insurance and we do have Legal Expenses cover. I'll be contacting the insurers over the weekend to start that side also.
.
Excellent.

2 things re: LEI

1. Do not use their panel firm
2. They will claim you have to, they are wrong


IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Wednesday 24th April 2019
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
lenny007 said:
I've also checked the home insurance and we do have Legal Expenses cover. I'll be contacting the insurers over the weekend to start that side also.
.
Excellent.

2 things re: LEI

1. Do not use their panel firm
2. They will claim you have to, they are wrong
Correct.

WhatHappenedThere

268 posts

60 months

Wednesday 24th April 2019
quotequote all
lenny007 said:
WhatHappenedThere - the one thing this is for us is business. My wife had a hell of a time in their employment and there were times it was purely emotional turmoil. Now she is away from the place, she's a different person. There's no stress in this situation for us - it's pretty much a side issue, albeit one which has our attention when it's needed.

Also, not sure what the purpose of an SAR would be?
see below wink




lenny007 said:
The one thing i read on the internet which has stuck with me all through this is to let the employer do a lot of the early running as more often than not, they will make mistakes which will make things worse for them. It certainly seems like that in this case.
It also now puts a timeline and a constraint on the Employer. It appears from your version they are sloppy in how they process and timeline.

With the SAR, You now put a 30 day clock on them doing THEIR homework. make it quite straight forward and factual - Request all communications and documentations between ..........
(name 5 or 6 likely staff member whom may have had any involvement in your wife's history - more if required)

this is an obligation they have to comply with.
If they ignore - you can firstly threaten to report them to the ICO after thirty days.
secondly obviously report them

it should in theory give a full transparency on their side.

If they ignore / cover up it will reflect on them later down the line.
Mine claimed the Email systems of the individuals was not 'filed' so the claimed exempt for the SAR. (aka - dont want to hand over the info) I knew existed that made it a slam dunk for me.
A quick google suggested - and I challenged them with - the 'Temp Test' and even with their response (which itself conceded these communications existed) still fall within the SAR request.

If they release info and you can prove they have omitted stuff it would obviously be used against them as dishonesty at a later stage - and see above about the 'reporting to the ICO'.

These are all huge headaches for them now, with a stopwatch ticking. Who wants - especially if there is shenanigans - their inbox scanned for mails and aired ? ?

In theory they are therefore likely to step forward for a protected conversation to ask what would it take to drop all this....

If not, it will focus their response a little.

lenny007 said:
JasandJules - i'm expecting the appeal will be following the findings of the investigation to be submitted within about an hour! At that point, we'll be contacting ACAS to start the ball rolling on that part of the process.

I think the company believe we'll roll over before it goes too far - they are mistaken.

I've also checked the home insurance and we do have Legal Expenses cover. I'll be contacting the insurers over the weekend to start that side also.

Once again - many thanks to you all for contributing.
It is likely you will get 'lite' advice from the Insurance Legal helpline, until you reach a point of zero opportunity of mediation and ACAS give you a reference number so you can then register the tribunal.

At that point you can then instigate actual legal help via the insurance with costs covered to act on your behalf.

I found a punchy Barrister who 'acted without instruction'. As mentioned above. You do not need to use the legal they choose. They covered my Barristers costs happily.

lenny007

Original Poster:

1,338 posts

220 months

Wednesday 24th April 2019
quotequote all
Wow! Quite a bit of information and help there - thanks a lot!

I think - and correct me if i'm wrong here - once we receive the findings of the grievance investigation, we'll then;

a) submit a SAR
b) appeal the findings
c) contact ACAS indicating our willingness to early conciliation.

This should;

a) mean they have to provide the documentation on my wife relating to the various grievances raised and the issues included within them
b) put a time constraint on them
c) provide us with more information which they have to consider under the appeal process
d) once ACAS start the early conciliation process, it will pause the timeframe for employment tribunals to commence

I appreciate that the company are under no obligation to accept the conciliation process but it puts more pressure on them to bring something more "reasonable" to the table.

Does that all seem "right"?

WhatHappenedThere

268 posts

60 months

Wednesday 24th April 2019
quotequote all
there or thereabouts IMHO -

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Thursday 25th April 2019
quotequote all
I don't know what your heads of claim are likely to be, but here are some stats that might be worth perusal:

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/tribunals...

I do know that the successful PIDA rate is about 3% and I think ordinary unfair dismissal runs at about 46%

Be careful with the lawyers if proceedings are started. I know of a successful disability claim where despite the solicitor being advised that the LEI ceiling of 30K could not be breached, a bill for 110K was presented and pretty much wiped out the award.


Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Thursday 25th April 2019
quotequote all
An SAR may be considered a fishing expedition really. Also you will have at most I suspect five days from the date your grievance is dismissed to Appeal.

As to the above, if that lawyer put in writing the costs of 30k then there is something which can be done about that...……..Of course it is always difficult to specify costs to trial as a lot depends on the Respondents and even the Tribunal for example does the ET simply list the claim and issue directions once the Defence is lodged or does it list a hearing for case management?

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Thursday 25th April 2019
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
An SAR may be considered a fishing expedition really. Also you will have at most I suspect five days from the date your grievance is dismissed to Appeal.
And if proceedings have started, the respondents might get tricksy and if so there could be the further expense of a county court application. So if needed, SAR needs to be in sharpish.


Jasandjules said:
As to the above, if that lawyer put in writing the costs of 30k then there is something which can be done about that...……..Of course it is always difficult to specify costs to trial as a lot depends on the Respondents and even the Tribunal for example does the ET simply list the claim and issue directions once the Defence is lodged or does it list a hearing for case management?
In that particular case there were clear and repeated instructions as to costs, however controlling cost drift can be difficult. In that particular case the individual was advised that SRA would be interested and that there was a good case to run against the firm, they decided however that they had had enough. Having been on both sides of the adversarial fence I can relate to that. Proceedings can be exhausting and debilitating.


Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Thursday 25th April 2019
quotequote all
There are cases surrounding costs estimates. I suspect a very stroppy letter to the head of the firm would result in a fairly good outcome.

As to the SAR - in Tribunal there are no costs for applications per se, save for the cost of the lawyer drafting and representing should you instruct one to do so.

But you are quite correct I always tell my clients it will be a LOT more stressful than they thought it would and to be prepared.


IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Thursday 25th April 2019
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
There are cases surrounding costs estimates. I suspect a very stroppy letter to the head of the firm would result in a fairly good outcome.

As to the SAR - in Tribunal there are no costs for applications per se, save for the cost of the lawyer drafting and representing should you instruct one to do so.

But you are quite correct I always tell my clients it will be a LOT more stressful than they thought it would and to be prepared.
The issue of costs in that case was closed some years ago.

The point I've been trying to make about SAR's is that once proceedings are live (but obviously not heard or disclosure orders made), respondents have been known to withhold data which might damage their case and which can then only be obtained by seeking and obtaining a county court judge's approval. There would probably be costs involved in that application.

FocusRS3

3,411 posts

90 months

Thursday 25th April 2019
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
There are cases surrounding costs estimates. I suspect a very stroppy letter to the head of the firm would result in a fairly good outcome.

As to the SAR - in Tribunal there are no costs for applications per se, save for the cost of the lawyer drafting and representing should you instruct one to do so.

But you are quite correct I always tell my clients it will be a LOT more stressful than they thought it would and to be prepared.
This is very true in that my case was very strong but for the period I sat out totally under the radar you start to question yourself which is what the respondent want. It’s part of the game.

There is no guarantee and I was put though the mill but in the end I had a strong case and my barrister even said there was no way it’ll get to court . He was right but they wanted to flex their muscles and turned up with a QC barrister at the pre hearing .

They agreed on mediation and it was clear they would agree a deal but there were mind games and doubts. I guess it’s all part of the game in that they get on with their daily routine knowing you at some stage need to bury it and move on.

For me I won , I got paid LOTS and they had to suck up my legal bill and their own finally acceping that I was prepared to take it to the wire .

Am I glad I did it? Hell yes
Would I want to go through it again? Hell no

The whole process is drawn out and stressful so my advice would be to encourage, if possible, a settlement , and be realistic, then move on.

I can only advise from my own experience .

Good luck

lenny007

Original Poster:

1,338 posts

220 months

Friday 26th April 2019
quotequote all
Evening all.

Apologies i've missed the replies - Avengers Endgames took precedence to legal shenanigans.

Ok - HR person has confirmed results of grievance investigation will be provided tomorrow - 8 weeks and 1 day after the grievance went in.

SAR request letter has already been typed and ready to be submitted. This will happen tomorrow.

Appeal letter is typed and ready for editing / sending tomorrow as well.

ACAS will be contacted Monday am.

With respect to the SAR, based on how badly they've dealt with the grievance, the company will be totally unprepared on a) what to do with this request and b) what information they should provide. It'll put the cat amongst the pigeons certainly and change the dynamic from the company dragging their heels to being put under a tight timescale. Which can only be good.

lenny007

Original Poster:

1,338 posts

220 months

Friday 26th April 2019
quotequote all
Small update

Grievance investigation results are in.

Excessive workload, discrimination, breaches of contract for pension and medical insurance all "unsubstantiated".

Non-payment of bonus, no agreed KPI's, no performance appraisals - substantiated.

With respect to the excessive workload, i found the paraphrase comment of "we've not replaced you and given part of your job to multiple people to do" not really helping their case. As i understand it, they've just admitted that "part" of the work my wife did is now being carried out by 17 people and yet she wasn't overworked?

Appeal letter being proof read tonight along with SAR.

Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Friday 26th April 2019
quotequote all
Well I think we can all be shocked at the Grievance not being upheld...…

If you want an informal (free) second opinion on your prospects etc message me.

lenny007

Original Poster:

1,338 posts

220 months

Friday 26th April 2019
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
Well I think we can all be shocked at the Grievance not being upheld...…

If you want an informal (free) second opinion on your prospects etc message me.
PM on it's way - many thanks for this.

Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Friday 26th April 2019
quotequote all
lenny007 said:
PM on it's way - many thanks for this.
Your email address appears to be problematic, keeps rejecting the address when I send a reply... Have also Pm'd you in case that works instead but if you don't get it...……...

lenny007

Original Poster:

1,338 posts

220 months

Friday 26th April 2019
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
Your email address appears to be problematic, keeps rejecting the address when I send a reply... Have also Pm'd you in case that works instead but if you don't get it...……...
PH Admin bods said they changed it but it looks like they haven't...

I'll resend the pm with my correct email address in it.


Edited by lenny007 on Friday 26th April 21:43