Contractors: IR35 & general discussion

[Countdown]

Olivera said:

Indeed, but it should also include a fair and competant assessment of employment status for tax, and ruling contracts as outside of IR35 where that is appropriate.

Absolutely, as long as that doesn’t mean jumping through hoops / rewording contracts purely for the purpose of making them outside IR35.

[And then she]

manracer said:

Can I ask, how does a fixed term contract ensure our of IR35 status?

It doesn't.

[manracer]

And then she said:

manracer said:

Can I ask, how does a fixed term contract ensure our of IR35 status?

It doesn't.

I didn't think so, yet people seem to be offering it as an option on this thread numerous times

[Mr Pointy]

manracer said:

And then she said:

manracer said:

Can I ask, how does a fixed term contract ensure our of IR35 status?

It doesn't.

I didn't think so, yet people seem to be offering it as an option on this thread numerous times

It's being proposed by the employers who like the idea of having someone you can treat like an employee but can toss them away after a fixed period & also not have to give them the benefits an employee would receive. With luck you can even screw them for the employers NI as well.

[Pit Pony]

manracer said:

And then she said:

manracer said:

Can I ask, how does a fixed term contract ensure our of IR35 status?

It doesn't.

I didn't think so, yet people seem to be offering it as an option on this thread numerous times

Some clients have operated a 2 year maX policy, for agency workers. This is the point where a worker suddenly gains more employment rights. It is also the point where any employee or director of a company would no longer be able to claim travel expenses if they'd been travelling to one place only.
Alot of people confuse both with IR35.

I have witnessed an agency worker on paye doing a fantastic job, transferred to another agency in attempt to remove his employment rights.
A fairly cynical and callous manipulation off employment law in my opinion.
I have also had my own contract reviewed by an extended tenure committee, who as I he understand it assessed the risks to the client of allowing my contract to be renewed at and beyond 2 years.
My hiring manager was given the go ahead to continue with my contract as long as he recruited a permie in that time.
That I could no longer claim expences through my limited company made me more reluctant but it was interesting so I took it.

[98elise]

Mr Pointy said:

manracer said:

And then she said:

manracer said:

Can I ask, how does a fixed term contract ensure our of IR35 status?

It doesn't.

I didn't think so, yet people seem to be offering it as an option on this thread numerous times

It's being proposed by the employers who like the idea of having someone you can treat like an employee but can toss them away after a fixed period & also not have to give them the benefits an employee would receive. With luck you can even screw them for the employers NI as well.

Having worked for an organisation where there were permanent staff, FTC, and contractors. People on FTC were paid the same (or less) than perm but we're treated as disposable like contractors.

FTC is used where the employer wants to have the best of both worlds, and the employee gets the worst of both worlds.

Edited by 98elise on Sunday 21st July 12:29

[Countdown]

98elise said:

Having worked for an organisation where there were permanent staff, FTC, and contractors. People on FTC were paid the same (or less) than perm but we're treated as disposable like contractors.

FTC is used where the employer wants to have the best of both worlds, and the employer gets the worst of both worlds.

Edited by 98elise on Sunday 21st July 10:09

Maybe it varies from place to place - Ive had FTC a few times and my T&Cs have been exactly the same as permanent staff (working hours, holidays, sick pay. The downside of being on a FTC was the higher salary. That was the only difference IME.

[Countdown]

Mr Pointy said:

It's being proposed by the employers who like the idea of having someone you can treat like an employee but can toss them away after a fixed period & also not have to give them the benefits an employee would receive. With luck you can even screw them for the employers NI as well.

So pretty much the same as an agency temp or somebody on a zero-hours contract (which, according to some people on here, employees “love” because of the flexibility it gives them).

[manracer]

Pit Pony said:

manracer said:

And then she said:

manracer said:

Can I ask, how does a fixed term contract ensure our of IR35 status?

It doesn't.

I didn't think so, yet people seem to be offering it as an option on this thread numerous times

Some clients have operated a 2 year maX policy, for agency workers. This is the point where a worker suddenly gains more employment rights. It is also the point where any employee or director of a company would no longer be able to claim travel expenses if they'd been travelling to one place only.
Alot of people confuse both with IR35.

I have witnessed an agency worker on paye doing a fantastic job, transferred to another agency in attempt to remove his employment rights.
A fairly cynical and callous manipulation off employment law in my opinion.
I have also had my own contract reviewed by an extended tenure committee, who as I he understand it assessed the risks to the client of allowing my contract to be renewed at and beyond 2 years.
My hiring manager was given the go ahead to continue with my contract as long as he recruited a permie in that time.
That I could no longer claim expences through my limited company made me more reluctant but it was interesting so I took it.

The 2 years max I'm used to. I (stupidly) assumed that the FTC rates would be the same as a day rate equivalent, seems I was being optimistic.

Tbh, I'm fairly confident that something will be sorted by April in order to maintain the status quo.

I've got a call this week with the director of the agency I'm currently working via with a view to understanding what they are working on for this.

[Gecko1978]

oh look a new chancellor who claims to be pro business...let's see if this IR35 BS really is a done deal....

[FredClogs]

Gecko1978 said:

oh look a new chancellor who claims to be pro business...let's see if this IR35 BS really is a done deal....

I doubt it, this was always driven by HMRC aka the civil service, the politicians of both colours have been hedging, delaying and string this out since 1998. Hence why the legislation is written so badly in the first instance.

The politicians won't be able to hold back the bad HMRC guidance or influence tribunal decisions, the could scrap or rewrite the legislation but I doubt they will.

[anonymous-user]

FredClogs said:

I doubt it, this was always driven by HMRC aka the civil service, the politicians of both colours have been hedging, delaying and string this out since 1998. Hence why the legislation is written so badly in the first instance.

The politicians won't be able to hold back the bad HMRC guidance or influence tribunal decisions, the could scrap or rewrite the legislation but I doubt they will.

Agreed, in public sector it’s been in place since 2017 and is being taken very seriously. It’s not going anywhere.

[Gecko1978]

wormus said:

FredClogs said:

I doubt it, this was always driven by HMRC aka the civil service, the politicians of both colours have been hedging, delaying and string this out since 1998. Hence why the legislation is written so badly in the first instance.

The politicians won't be able to hold back the bad HMRC guidance or influence tribunal decisions, the could scrap or rewrite the legislation but I doubt they will.

Agreed, in public sector it’s been in place since 2017 and is being taken very seriously. It’s not going anywhere.

Javid has proposed rolling back 45% rate and is seen as pro business so who knows they can and should advise HMRC on how to proceed

[blank]

Gecko1978 said:

oh look a new chancellor who claims to be pro business...let's see if this IR35 BS really is a done deal....

But isn't this whole thing targeting those that aren't running genuine businesses?

[Gecko1978]

blank said:

Gecko1978 said:

oh look a new chancellor who claims to be pro business...let's see if this IR35 BS really is a done deal....

But isn't this whole thing targeting those that aren't running genuine businesses?

The term genuine business is what is up for debate so agency worker doing a BAU job in a call center being paid less than perm staff or indeed the plumber who worked for one company but was denied any benefits yes they are not real business and don't want to be.

The IT contractor who works at 1 place for 2 years on a project then moves to another bank / project with no intention of going perm staying at a firm gaining promotion etc who looks for other work but happens to be a individual then no I would argue he or she is a business. They don't want to be perm or work for a given company are happy to have no holiday sick pay development or training etc. (ps the example does not describe me)

[wombleh]

It's not so much about being a real business, a PSC (personal service company) operating inside IR35 can be a real business but with UK tax law there isn't much point running a limited company in that situation. Plenty of suppliers send resources on T&M basis to do whatever the client desires and they're still real businesses. It's about the tax setup for certain types of business, different countries have different rules on it so it's not like there's a clear moral boundary where one side it's all good and the other side you're suddenly evading tax.

I'm fairly comfortable with my status, but I am not remotely comfortable that either the clients or the agents will be able to handle this properly. Just another road block being thrown in the way of me doing what I actually started the business to do in the first place. There's a few interesting looking perm roles on the horizon that would result in a big drop in income and tax paid, but in cheaper parts of the country anyway, wouldn't have dreamt of that five years ago but it's more tempting these days!

[SOL111]

Resist..........must not go permie

[BluePurpleRed]

My contractor buddies and I call it being "perm curious".

I am BluePurpleRed and I am "perm curious" now. There. I have said it.

Phew.

[egomeister]

Let the weak go permie... more work left for those with stronger resolve!

[98elise]

egomeister said:

Let the weak go permie... more work left for those with stronger resolve!

The intelligent retire

You can aways make more money, but you can't make more life