Employers of graduates in Engineering - a CV question
Discussion
I'd value some thoughts and input from any forums members who are potentially involved in the recruitment process of Engineering graduates.
My son has just graduated from Birmingham University with a Masters Degree in Mechanical Engineering (with an extra year in Computer Science). So at last, he's in the market for a proper job.
My experience of CVs has been in the passed producing my own and as an ex-surgeon, looking at and sifting through those (lots over the years!) of junior doctors applying for jobs where I was the consultant.
Obviously, over the years, my own CV grew with time (various junior jobs etc. etc.) and so ran to several pages. My son obviously doesn't yet have that benefit of time behind him yet. But, it's not like he has nothing to put on it.
However, when he showed me his CV it is literally condensed down to one side of tightly-spaced (by necessity) that to me is hardly readable, let alone inviting of serious scrutiny. When I was looking at CVs, I have to say, had I been presented with such a CV it would have found its way into the bin very quickly!
On mentioning this to him, he is insistent that it has been drummed into them at University that they MUST keep their CVs down to one side of A4.
Am I wrong, old-fashioned and out of touch with what's expected or wanted by employers these days? Is there a different expectation within the medical and engineering professions? Or, have they just been misguided by the advice given at University?
Many thanks in advance for any thoughts or help.
My son has just graduated from Birmingham University with a Masters Degree in Mechanical Engineering (with an extra year in Computer Science). So at last, he's in the market for a proper job.
My experience of CVs has been in the passed producing my own and as an ex-surgeon, looking at and sifting through those (lots over the years!) of junior doctors applying for jobs where I was the consultant.
Obviously, over the years, my own CV grew with time (various junior jobs etc. etc.) and so ran to several pages. My son obviously doesn't yet have that benefit of time behind him yet. But, it's not like he has nothing to put on it.
However, when he showed me his CV it is literally condensed down to one side of tightly-spaced (by necessity) that to me is hardly readable, let alone inviting of serious scrutiny. When I was looking at CVs, I have to say, had I been presented with such a CV it would have found its way into the bin very quickly!
On mentioning this to him, he is insistent that it has been drummed into them at University that they MUST keep their CVs down to one side of A4.
Am I wrong, old-fashioned and out of touch with what's expected or wanted by employers these days? Is there a different expectation within the medical and engineering professions? Or, have they just been misguided by the advice given at University?
Many thanks in advance for any thoughts or help.
The rule used to be 1 page per decade of experience. By that rule he would have to stick to one page. I think the driver is that a university leaver probably doesn't have much to put on a c.v. so it would just be padding. If your son has 2 pages worth then I can't see anything that would prevent him from improving the formatting and using 2 pages. Just make sure it doesn't look light on info.
When I left university mine was 2 sides, well spaced, but most engineering jobs had an online process and nowhere to upload a CV anyway
Engineers don't like words! Keep it brief and focussed
More than happy to take a look over a CV if you message it to me. A couple of PHers did the same for me when I graduated, although they were acquaintances from the real world to
I'm probably not the best qualified. Mechanical engineer for 6 years since graduating. Have a couple of graduates that report to me but I've never recruited anyone
Engineers don't like words! Keep it brief and focussed
More than happy to take a look over a CV if you message it to me. A couple of PHers did the same for me when I graduated, although they were acquaintances from the real world to
I'm probably not the best qualified. Mechanical engineer for 6 years since graduating. Have a couple of graduates that report to me but I've never recruited anyone
Agree with some of the comments above. I was an engineering graduate, and now I review a lot of CVs, primarily for Project Management jobs though.
The length of the CV should be related to the amount of relevant experience. I therefore understand why a university would say stick to 1 side. Personally I would pick out parts of my degree that are relevant to the role I am applying for. If this is 2 sides then go with that.
I've recently had 7 or 8 sided CVs for a PM role, where 5 of the pages were about fitness/sport related qualifications. All very interesting, but totally distracting from the parts of the CV that are actually important.
The length of the CV should be related to the amount of relevant experience. I therefore understand why a university would say stick to 1 side. Personally I would pick out parts of my degree that are relevant to the role I am applying for. If this is 2 sides then go with that.
I've recently had 7 or 8 sided CVs for a PM role, where 5 of the pages were about fitness/sport related qualifications. All very interesting, but totally distracting from the parts of the CV that are actually important.
Edited by Sarkmeister on Monday 15th July 20:54
I would agree that one side of A4 sounds appropriate for a university leaver. Bit about the course, possibly most recent part time work, and something about work experience that's relevant. That's what mine was when I left university.
After ten years, and four positions (different countries and jobs, but same company) I have just decided two sides now seems about right.
After ten years, and four positions (different countries and jobs, but same company) I have just decided two sides now seems about right.
I've been part of several graduate recruitment panels for a multinational engineering business.
1 page CV, 1 page covering letter.
Anymore than that and HR start to lose concentration. As a graduate, at most he'll have a year in industry, so not exactly drowning in experience. Some mature students might include more but it'll be immediately obvious that they have greater experience.
I'm in South East Wales if he's interested.
1 page CV, 1 page covering letter.
Anymore than that and HR start to lose concentration. As a graduate, at most he'll have a year in industry, so not exactly drowning in experience. Some mature students might include more but it'll be immediately obvious that they have greater experience.
I'm in South East Wales if he's interested.
Doesn't really matter if it's one or two sides IMO. Longer than 2 is a bit annoying though.
Making it easy to read and concise is most important. Bullet points / short sentences, not stories. Don't use 10 words if 5 will do.
If it needs to spread over 2 sides for that to work then fine. If it can fit on one then great.
Key points to highlight for me would be any relevant work experience, practical real world experience, and any skills with industry standard software and equipment.
No real need to list all uni modules as there isn't much difference between mech eng courses.
(chartered engineer (automotive), done lots of grad and non grad recruitment)
Making it easy to read and concise is most important. Bullet points / short sentences, not stories. Don't use 10 words if 5 will do.
If it needs to spread over 2 sides for that to work then fine. If it can fit on one then great.
Key points to highlight for me would be any relevant work experience, practical real world experience, and any skills with industry standard software and equipment.
No real need to list all uni modules as there isn't much difference between mech eng courses.
(chartered engineer (automotive), done lots of grad and non grad recruitment)
That's really, really helpful everybody...Thank you!
Seems he was more right then me!
I'll certainly also take up the offers that have been made too. And, if sending the CV I'll send it in the exact current format that he sent it to me.
I'll even remove the bit that I (surreptitiously) added in the 'Outside Interest' section about being:
"..an accomplished light entertainer, proficient tap-dancer and stand-up comedian."
In the hope that he wouldn't re-read it before presenting himself for a face to face interview!
Many thanks again.
Seems he was more right then me!
I'll certainly also take up the offers that have been made too. And, if sending the CV I'll send it in the exact current format that he sent it to me.
I'll even remove the bit that I (surreptitiously) added in the 'Outside Interest' section about being:
"..an accomplished light entertainer, proficient tap-dancer and stand-up comedian."
In the hope that he wouldn't re-read it before presenting himself for a face to face interview!
Many thanks again.
32 years in mech eng here, chartered etc… interviewed 100’s and recruited many people over the years.
I look at qualifications, last 5 years of experience, and then hobbies.
For graduates I look for any clues along the lines of “do they actually want to be an engineer?” as the majority don’t. It usually comes out in the interview anyway.
As above, its real-world experience, especially practical, and even more so if its customer/supplier facing. It must be realistic too. I’ve seen CVs of fresh mech eng grads claiming widespread knowledge of 3 CAD systems and 2 FEA systems. Err… really? No-one in engineering would believe that.
I’m afraid to say most of HR are lazy and just look for buzz words and have savage filters in place that ignore promising people. In the past I’ve told HR that I want to see all the CVs that come in for roles, including the ones they have binned. An interesting exercise on its own.
In most companies many CVs longer than 2 pages get binned unless they are amazing, they certainly shouldn’t be longer than 3 pages. As above, for a grad, one page is fine.
For a graduate I would put as much thought, if not more, into the covering letter than constantly tweaking up the CV. At their age, all the applicant’s CVs will look the same anyway, having a well-structured covering letter will make sure his CV actually gets read.
I look at qualifications, last 5 years of experience, and then hobbies.
For graduates I look for any clues along the lines of “do they actually want to be an engineer?” as the majority don’t. It usually comes out in the interview anyway.
As above, its real-world experience, especially practical, and even more so if its customer/supplier facing. It must be realistic too. I’ve seen CVs of fresh mech eng grads claiming widespread knowledge of 3 CAD systems and 2 FEA systems. Err… really? No-one in engineering would believe that.
I’m afraid to say most of HR are lazy and just look for buzz words and have savage filters in place that ignore promising people. In the past I’ve told HR that I want to see all the CVs that come in for roles, including the ones they have binned. An interesting exercise on its own.
In most companies many CVs longer than 2 pages get binned unless they are amazing, they certainly shouldn’t be longer than 3 pages. As above, for a grad, one page is fine.
For a graduate I would put as much thought, if not more, into the covering letter than constantly tweaking up the CV. At their age, all the applicant’s CVs will look the same anyway, having a well-structured covering letter will make sure his CV actually gets read.
bucksmanuk said:
32 years in mech eng here, chartered etc… interviewed 100’s and recruited many people over the years.
I look at qualifications, last 5 years of experience, and then hobbies.
For graduates I look for any clues along the lines of “do they actually want to be an engineer?” as the majority don’t. It usually comes out in the interview anyway.
As above, its real-world experience, especially practical, and even more so if its customer/supplier facing. It must be realistic too. I’ve seen CVs of fresh mech eng grads claiming widespread knowledge of 3 CAD systems and 2 FEA systems. Err… really? No-one in engineering would believe that.
I’m afraid to say most of HR are lazy and just look for buzz words and have savage filters in place that ignore promising people. In the past I’ve told HR that I want to see all the CVs that come in for roles, including the ones they have binned. An interesting exercise on its own.
In most companies many CVs longer than 2 pages get binned unless they are amazing, they certainly shouldn’t be longer than 3 pages. As above, for a grad, one page is fine.
For a graduate I would put as much thought, if not more, into the covering letter than constantly tweaking up the CV. At their age, all the applicant’s CVs will look the same anyway, having a well-structured covering letter will make sure his CV actually gets read.
That's brilliant advice especially about the covering letter! Thank youI look at qualifications, last 5 years of experience, and then hobbies.
For graduates I look for any clues along the lines of “do they actually want to be an engineer?” as the majority don’t. It usually comes out in the interview anyway.
As above, its real-world experience, especially practical, and even more so if its customer/supplier facing. It must be realistic too. I’ve seen CVs of fresh mech eng grads claiming widespread knowledge of 3 CAD systems and 2 FEA systems. Err… really? No-one in engineering would believe that.
I’m afraid to say most of HR are lazy and just look for buzz words and have savage filters in place that ignore promising people. In the past I’ve told HR that I want to see all the CVs that come in for roles, including the ones they have binned. An interesting exercise on its own.
In most companies many CVs longer than 2 pages get binned unless they are amazing, they certainly shouldn’t be longer than 3 pages. As above, for a grad, one page is fine.
For a graduate I would put as much thought, if not more, into the covering letter than constantly tweaking up the CV. At their age, all the applicant’s CVs will look the same anyway, having a well-structured covering letter will make sure his CV actually gets read.
I can see now that my previous advice to him was indeed wrong.
At present his only relevant working experience is on the 'Year in Industry Scheme' that he did PRIOR to university with the two design Engineers at a firm in Telford who design and make the bodies/rears for light commercial vehicles.
Many thanks
derin100 said:
That's brilliant advice especially about the covering letter! Thank you
I can see now that my previous advice to him was indeed wrong.
At present his only relevant working experience is on the 'Year in Industry Scheme' that he did PRIOR to university with the two design Engineers at a firm in Telford who design and make the bodies/rears for light commercial vehicles.
Many thanks
The year in industry is key here and it’s what will begin to differentiate himself from others, especially if it was good experience, which it sounds as if it was, and it separates him from those who haven't done one.I can see now that my previous advice to him was indeed wrong.
At present his only relevant working experience is on the 'Year in Industry Scheme' that he did PRIOR to university with the two design Engineers at a firm in Telford who design and make the bodies/rears for light commercial vehicles.
Many thanks
So, his covering letter needs to cover what he learnt on his year out, and just as important, what he enjoyed. As stated, there are a lot of people in engineering just turning the handle, not enjoying it at all.
I'm not currently in a recruiting position but I've interviewed a fair few engineers over the years, most commonly second jobbers, but a few grads.
1 page is fine, two would be fine too. A 2-pager is always going to look a bit thin for a grad, but 1 page might be a little crowded if there's 5 years of uni and a year in industry to cover. I'd be looking for slightly off-topic GCSEs and/or A-levels such as languages, then plenty on the personal elements of the course such as dissertations, final year projects. Extra-curricular activities highlighting a desire to be an engineer or to be in that industry, and at least partly developed social skills (hey, we're talking engineering here): weekend jobs, fixing old cars, programming in spare time, that sort of thing. Anyone employing a grad isn't going to expect them to be fully trained up, but at least some exposure to CAD or data handling systems is always going to look better than nothing.
Recruiting engineers are typically short on time, and all too often rather hard of reading: keep it clear, bullet-pointed and use keywords where relevant, without over-promising. Especially with a grad CV, over-selling stands out. For the year in industry, make it clear what he achieved and whether he had any autonomy. Avoid unnecessary wordiness: don't say "enthusiastic and self-motivated", show the recruiter using examples.
Many of the CVs I received got mashed around by the removal of personal data. Nevertheless, poor formatting and especially poor spelling looks sloppy (although some allowances made for foreigners). We occasionally had photos (including a full page one), and they are de rigeur on the continent, but also tend to get filtered out on discrimination grounds in the UK. I never received covering letters from HR: I have no idea whether they got them and used them to filter, but I know the agencies didn't send them for the more experienced guys, so would tend towards a shorter covering letter and more on the CV.
1 page is fine, two would be fine too. A 2-pager is always going to look a bit thin for a grad, but 1 page might be a little crowded if there's 5 years of uni and a year in industry to cover. I'd be looking for slightly off-topic GCSEs and/or A-levels such as languages, then plenty on the personal elements of the course such as dissertations, final year projects. Extra-curricular activities highlighting a desire to be an engineer or to be in that industry, and at least partly developed social skills (hey, we're talking engineering here): weekend jobs, fixing old cars, programming in spare time, that sort of thing. Anyone employing a grad isn't going to expect them to be fully trained up, but at least some exposure to CAD or data handling systems is always going to look better than nothing.
Recruiting engineers are typically short on time, and all too often rather hard of reading: keep it clear, bullet-pointed and use keywords where relevant, without over-promising. Especially with a grad CV, over-selling stands out. For the year in industry, make it clear what he achieved and whether he had any autonomy. Avoid unnecessary wordiness: don't say "enthusiastic and self-motivated", show the recruiter using examples.
Many of the CVs I received got mashed around by the removal of personal data. Nevertheless, poor formatting and especially poor spelling looks sloppy (although some allowances made for foreigners). We occasionally had photos (including a full page one), and they are de rigeur on the continent, but also tend to get filtered out on discrimination grounds in the UK. I never received covering letters from HR: I have no idea whether they got them and used them to filter, but I know the agencies didn't send them for the more experienced guys, so would tend towards a shorter covering letter and more on the CV.
Just reading through and interested and intrigued as to what is good or not for a cv. I’m 48 with 31years experience in automotive, production toolmaking within the same company I started as an apprentice and I’m being made redundant in a few months. I’ll be looking for another job. No degree, just hnc and obviously a few years of experience.
Thank you for the further advice chaps!
Norwegian Blue.....great, detailed and insightful advice.
"at least partly developed social skills (hey, we're talking engineering here)" made me literally LOL!
He's got quite a few of those 'extras' that you mentioned. But, as you also advised, I don't think they're necessarily well-highlighted in the current iteration of his CV. They are there but perhaps easily overlooked.
Many thanks indeed.
Norwegian Blue.....great, detailed and insightful advice.
"at least partly developed social skills (hey, we're talking engineering here)" made me literally LOL!
He's got quite a few of those 'extras' that you mentioned. But, as you also advised, I don't think they're necessarily well-highlighted in the current iteration of his CV. They are there but perhaps easily overlooked.
Many thanks indeed.
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