Who's liable for my tools destroyed in fire at workplace ?

[tedmagnum]

United Kingdom.

Hi all.

I've got a tricky question. I was hoping someone here would have some experience or insight.

I went for a job at a workshop. The boss was keen to hire me but he said he'd put me on a trial for a few weeks to see how I got on. He told me to bring in my tools and do a couple of days a week in the workshop and he'd pay me under a self employed basis.

Basically i'd invoice him for days worked. I know that's naughty as it's being a disguised employee. It's a grey area but could be seen as illegal.

Two weeks into my 'trial' I get a phone call from one of the other technicians that the workshop had burned down with everything in it. Including over £3000 of my tools. These tools are my livelihood and took me over ten years to accumulate.

At the moment I'm registered as self employed. I went for this job as I need a contract to buy a house with my fiancee.

I never had a contract with him as I'd literally only been there two weeks. (Four days)

He paid me cash into my bank account for two days work (January) so I have evidence that I was working there.

My tools are still there as a melted pile of metal in the corner of the workshop. Investigation is still on-going.

I don't have personal insurance for my tools as they were fully insured at my previous workplace. So it totally slipped my mind to privately insure them.

I have yet to see the boss. He seems to be impossible to get hold of. I appreciate his head is up his **** due to the fire though.

Any ideas here ??

I obviously want to claim on his insurance and keep my job. That would be the best outcome.

If I have to, I could take him to Small Claims court but I don't know who would be liable in my circumstances.

The boss has a reputation for being super cheap. The concept of him just paying for them out of his pocket out of good will is pretty much forgettable.

Thanks in advance.

[Djtemeka]

Claim on his insurance

[tedmagnum]

I don't know if he has insurance for peoples tools. Garages often don't.

And officially, I don't work there...

I will try though.

[greygoose]

Djtemeka said:

Claim on his insurance

Seems to be your only option as you have no insurance of your own.

[tedmagnum]

Yes. That's probably the case.

I'm just seeing what my potential next step could be if he turns around and says I'm not insured on his policy.

[greygoose]

I think you would be stuck to be honest, unless he torched the place and took anything of value out beforehand.

[tedmagnum]

One option I was suggested is that I sue him for negligence. But I'd have to prove that he was negligent.

The workshop was a complete fire hazard. Plastic containers of waste oil stacked up against a wall. Vehicles left on charge over-night. Fuel not kept in fuel cupboards etc. He was negligent. But I can't prove it.

Who knows. The insurance investigation may show that up...

I obviously don't want to be "That guy" who goes down that route though..

Cheers

[22]

Personally I think you'll be out of luck. If I hire a plumber, he's self-employed, I would presume his gear is sufficiently insured.

[LittleBigPlanet]

tedmagnum said:

One option I was suggested is that I sue him for negligence. But I'd have to prove that he was negligent.

The workshop was a complete fire hazard. Plastic containers of waste oil stacked up against a wall. Vehicles left on charge over-night. Fuel not kept in fuel cupboards etc. He was negligent. But I can't prove it.

Who knows. The insurance investigation may show that up...

I obviously don't want to be "That guy" who goes down that route though..

Cheers

Conversely, IANAL, but if you recognised this, surely it begs the question as to why you willingly left your tools in said fire hazard (which you freely acknowledge your livelihood depends on). Not trying to be difficult (I hope you manage to resolve this) but statements like the above probably won't get you too far into a conversation with a competent lawyer.

[RedWhiteMonkey]

tedmagnum said:

One option I was suggested is that I sue him for negligence. But I'd have to prove that he was negligent.

The workshop was a complete fire hazard. Plastic containers of waste oil stacked up against a wall. Vehicles left on charge over-night. Fuel not kept in fuel cupboards etc. He was negligent. But I can't prove it.

and you still wanted to work there? Sounds like a difficult situation. I think the only recourse is his insurance but you don't sound too confident in that.

[tedmagnum]

LittleBigPlanet said:

Conversely, IANAL, but if you recognised this, surely it begs the question as to why you willingly left your tools in said fire hazard (which you freely acknowledge your livelihood depends on). Not trying to be difficult (I hope you manage to resolve this) but statements like the above probably won't get you too far into a conversation with a competent lawyer.

A fair comment.

However I could argue I didn't realise it was a fire hazard until it burnt down and I started to ask myself why !

[Douglas Quaid]

If you get arsey about your tools there’s no way he’ll employ you again. You say you want to keep your job with him, you’ll just have to buy more tools.

I’ve had tools nicked before while being on a job for someone. I just swore then bought more. If you can’t afford them then use a credit card and get working to pay it off. That’s my advice.

[tedmagnum]

Douglas Quaid said:

If you get arsey about your tools there’s no way he’ll employ you again. You say you want to keep your job with him, you’ll just have to buy more tools.

I’ve had tools nicked before while being on a job for someone. I just swore then bought more. If you can’t afford them then use a credit card and get working to pay it off. That’s my advice.

Absolutely. That's another issue isn't it.

I don't even know if I have a job there anymore. They have no workshop anymore... And not for the foreseeable future.

[Eric Mc]

Are you employed or self-employed?

If employed, your employer should be covered by his insurance.

If self-employed, you should have your own insurance.

[ozzuk]

I'd say worst case, and in my opinion likely case (though I'm no expert so take with pinch of salt) is no workshop = no job. Unless you had a water tight contract for work then he just won't be using you. And your tools - again unless in a contract, your tools you should have insured. I sadly think you are out of luck on both counts.

I also can't see any case for sueing (or at least winning, anyone can sue), you are supposed to insure against that kind of risk - I can see the insurance company pushing back if contractors try and add a claim, for example if there were expensive tools were any named on the insurance policy? What would stop you adding items that were never there.

[njw1]

It's a different line of work but sort of the same thing but I do the odd mobile disco and hire pa equipment to quite a few local venues which often involves me leaving lots of expensive kit in local pubs and clubs, I've always been aware that legally I'm leaving it there at my own risk so have either have the kit insured or take a chance.
Unfortunately I think the best you can do is speak to the garage owner to see if he will pay for or replace at least some of your tools so that you can get back to work, I'd keep it civil as pissing the guy off isn't likely to get you anywhere and whilst there may be legal avenues you can take ultimately I think it'll be long winded and the end result will be that you'll still be without tools.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

22 said:

Personally I think you'll be out of luck. If I hire a plumber, he's self-employed, I would presume his gear is sufficiently insured.

Indeed. Your only hope is if the fire was caused by the negligence of an actual employee of the company. Then you would have a claim under the firms public liability cover......their employees negligence caused you, someone who isn't an employee bur was just working on the premises, to suffer a loss.

As above, if I employed a plumber, I'm not liable for insuring his tools. He should insure his own tools. But if I do something negligent that damages his tools, that's a different matter.

[Djtemeka]

22 said:

Personally I think you'll be out of luck. If I hire a plumber, he's self-employed, I would presume his gear is sufficiently insured.

You have to pay extra for tool cover

[Djtemeka]

You’re all overthinking this.

Regardless of wether he is employed there or not, his property was destroyed in a businesses fire. It needs to be claimed on the businesses insurance. The owner shouldn’t get arsey about it. A claim is a claim. I’m sure there is other things being claimed for.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Djtemeka said:

You’re all overthinking this.

Regardless of wether he is employed there or not, his property was destroyed in a businesses fire. It needs to be claimed on the businesses insurance. The owner shouldn’t get arsey about it. A claim is a claim. I’m sure there is other things being claimed for.

You're underthinking this. No one can claim anything from another party, or their insurance company, unless the party that caused your loss was negligent. Just because something bad happened to you that was not your fault, doesn't mean it was someone else's fault. That's why people insure their own things, in case it gets lost or damaged and no one else was negligent.

The owner of the property that caught fire had fire insurance. That covers his building and his stuff. If someone else lost their stuff, they are going to have to prove negligence to claim off the third party liability part of the owners policy.

Edited by TwigtheWonderkid on Wednesday 12th February 13:44