Benefits of doing a PhD?
Discussion
Largely agree with most of the comments re. job prospects.
The vast majority of the engineering/science PhD/EngD holders I know in automotive, aerospace, rail, biochem/medicine, finance etc. all do pretty specific technical jobs that they only got because they have the PhDs they have. Some of those jobs could also be done by those with relevant experience outside of PhD study, of course, but many of those jobs will have specified 'PhD in a related discipline' as 'desirable' in the role specification, or even 'essential'. I also know of a few people who initially had roles where a PhD was not that important in getting started, but certainly has helped them progress beyond their peers either in their organisation or secure a role elsewhere. Some companies like having PhD holders in certain leadership roles, in the same way they like MBA holders.
That said, there are many, many more roles in those areas that need skills/competencies/experiences/behaviours that you don't solely get doing a PhD, so having a PhD is obviously not an advantage. I think this is especially the case if you've been in academia for a while as a post-doc researcher or similar so lack the more corporate skills/competencies/experiences/behaviours that someone who graduated with you and went straight into industry would have built up over 10 years or so.
Personally, doing a PhD is one of the best things I've ever done and has enabled me to do some technical work for organisations that, as an undergraduate, I never thought I'd ever do, even as a sponsored student (for MEng and PhD) within a global organisation in the field I've since worked in for my whole career.
Academia is a whole other ball game though as everyone has one!
The vast majority of the engineering/science PhD/EngD holders I know in automotive, aerospace, rail, biochem/medicine, finance etc. all do pretty specific technical jobs that they only got because they have the PhDs they have. Some of those jobs could also be done by those with relevant experience outside of PhD study, of course, but many of those jobs will have specified 'PhD in a related discipline' as 'desirable' in the role specification, or even 'essential'. I also know of a few people who initially had roles where a PhD was not that important in getting started, but certainly has helped them progress beyond their peers either in their organisation or secure a role elsewhere. Some companies like having PhD holders in certain leadership roles, in the same way they like MBA holders.
That said, there are many, many more roles in those areas that need skills/competencies/experiences/behaviours that you don't solely get doing a PhD, so having a PhD is obviously not an advantage. I think this is especially the case if you've been in academia for a while as a post-doc researcher or similar so lack the more corporate skills/competencies/experiences/behaviours that someone who graduated with you and went straight into industry would have built up over 10 years or so.
Personally, doing a PhD is one of the best things I've ever done and has enabled me to do some technical work for organisations that, as an undergraduate, I never thought I'd ever do, even as a sponsored student (for MEng and PhD) within a global organisation in the field I've since worked in for my whole career.
Academia is a whole other ball game though as everyone has one!
cdon said:
I would qualify as a UK student.
If I could find something relating to composites, FEA or similar analysis I would be interested. Really an advancement or future technology that I’m not going to have an opportunity to explore in my current role.
My dad did a PhD on composites in the 70s and ended up in programme management.If I could find something relating to composites, FEA or similar analysis I would be interested. Really an advancement or future technology that I’m not going to have an opportunity to explore in my current role.
I didn't do a PhD and I've been blowing things up all afternoon.
A close friend did a scientific PhD a few years back and is now just finishing their 4th degree.
The PhD was the single worst thing for mental health and general well being I’ve had someone close to me go through.
It was an overall nightmare and something I would never recommend to anyone.
It came down to the supervisor.
Fortunately they declined a post doc and academia.
However due to PhD, job offers in a parallel industry have been made where there are few jobs to be had and they have started a very successful career.
Without a doubt not possible without the PhD.
My advice would be meet your potential Supervisor in person before starting a PhD.
Engage in serious face to face discussion with past/current students of the department/supervisor and ask their advice, most PhD students would be happy to do this.
Make sure you are financially and mentally in a stable place before starting. Good luck.
The PhD was the single worst thing for mental health and general well being I’ve had someone close to me go through.
It was an overall nightmare and something I would never recommend to anyone.
It came down to the supervisor.
Fortunately they declined a post doc and academia.
However due to PhD, job offers in a parallel industry have been made where there are few jobs to be had and they have started a very successful career.
Without a doubt not possible without the PhD.
My advice would be meet your potential Supervisor in person before starting a PhD.
Engage in serious face to face discussion with past/current students of the department/supervisor and ask their advice, most PhD students would be happy to do this.
Make sure you are financially and mentally in a stable place before starting. Good luck.
jackh707 said:
It came down to the supervisor.
Make sure you are financially and mentally in a stable place before starting. Good luck.
Probably the most important comment on this thread. My supervisor just didn’t supervise. I arrived with a hypothesis (concocted by him), and was told right at the start ‘here’s your source material, come to this conclusion’. I did as I was told (with no supervision throughout), and failed my viva. Fortunately, both the internal and external examiners knew exactly was happening, so it wasn’t a complete fail, and they encouraged me to submit what I really thought. Took an extra year, but (ultimately) worth it, although it very, very nearly broke me.Make sure you are financially and mentally in a stable place before starting. Good luck.
I couldn’t have done it without the senior lab technician, who was far more of a supervisor to me than my ‘real’ supervisor.
Personally, I think professional qualifications are a better thing in industry. A PhD in an arcane subject is not as long a willy as being chartered, etc.
I turned down a "come up with a new material" DPhil at Oxford in 01 to surf instead. In hindsight, the opportunity of a lifetime, but the PhD being a ticket into academia does meet with a load of 50-70 academics who are not retiring anytime soon. My next move is CGeol. Not because I need it, but because I want to have the biggest work penis in my local habitat.
I turned down a "come up with a new material" DPhil at Oxford in 01 to surf instead. In hindsight, the opportunity of a lifetime, but the PhD being a ticket into academia does meet with a load of 50-70 academics who are not retiring anytime soon. My next move is CGeol. Not because I need it, but because I want to have the biggest work penis in my local habitat.
Would add to this, make sure you are very interested in the subject you are investigating, as you will be doing it for 3 years minimum. I was encouraged to go down a slightly different path at 1.5 years in by my supervisor. Absolutely hated the next 1.5 years as i wasn't interested at all.
I was offered a funded PhD after completing my MSc in Manufacturing Engineering but I couldn't be asked to "study" another 3 years, just wanted to get on with it.
I am now in a completely different industry (Banking) and earning much more than I would have, had I stayed in Engineering. A Phd wouldn't have helped either way I think.
On the flipside, I have interviewed a few PhD candidates and I found their lack of "real world" experience of working in large commercial organisations to simply be a deal breaker. They couldn't/wouldn't apply to Grad positions and had higher expectations, rightly so, yet their naivety to the workplace just made them unsuitable. This was for Sales positions though, their profiles might have been a better fit in other areas like Research, Quant or Structuring.
I am now in a completely different industry (Banking) and earning much more than I would have, had I stayed in Engineering. A Phd wouldn't have helped either way I think.
On the flipside, I have interviewed a few PhD candidates and I found their lack of "real world" experience of working in large commercial organisations to simply be a deal breaker. They couldn't/wouldn't apply to Grad positions and had higher expectations, rightly so, yet their naivety to the workplace just made them unsuitable. This was for Sales positions though, their profiles might have been a better fit in other areas like Research, Quant or Structuring.
I did one back in 02 in chemistry, so the comments below are science related, an arts PhD will be very different.
pluses:
+ student life is fun (I was 22-25 at the time), can still behave like a stupid undergrad, without the exams
+ decent grants available in science, can get extra money supervising (giving tutorials)
+ good laugh and banter in the lab, chemists are quite a boozy bunch as well
+ freedom to pick your own research...see below
+ for certain jobs useful - doesn't have to be in the subject area but carries prestige, especially if you are 'upgrading' your Uni from undergrad
minuses:
- writing up!
- freedom to pick your own research... see above
- writing up!
- risk of losing enthusiasm - this happened to me but managed to get through it
- writing up!
Think VERY carefully about the institution/group
- If the job afterwards is not related to the PhD, the prestige of the INSTITUTION is more important.
- If the job afterwards is related to the PhD, the prestige of the RESEARCH GROUP is more important.
To remove the above risk, ideally pick something that ticks both boxes!
I am not a chemist now, some of the skills are useful, I don't regret it as I made lifelong friends and had a good time
P.S. writing up is the seventh circle of hell
pluses:
+ student life is fun (I was 22-25 at the time), can still behave like a stupid undergrad, without the exams
+ decent grants available in science, can get extra money supervising (giving tutorials)
+ good laugh and banter in the lab, chemists are quite a boozy bunch as well
+ freedom to pick your own research...see below
+ for certain jobs useful - doesn't have to be in the subject area but carries prestige, especially if you are 'upgrading' your Uni from undergrad
minuses:
- writing up!
- freedom to pick your own research... see above
- writing up!
- risk of losing enthusiasm - this happened to me but managed to get through it
- writing up!
Think VERY carefully about the institution/group
- If the job afterwards is not related to the PhD, the prestige of the INSTITUTION is more important.
- If the job afterwards is related to the PhD, the prestige of the RESEARCH GROUP is more important.
To remove the above risk, ideally pick something that ticks both boxes!
I am not a chemist now, some of the skills are useful, I don't regret it as I made lifelong friends and had a good time
P.S. writing up is the seventh circle of hell
Was debating whether to add to this. Like others here I just followed my nose into one, and it did a nice job of delaying the 'what next' question when I was finishing my first degree. Again like others, my supervisors (I had two, psychopaths both) almost made me throw in the towel. I got my PhD in spite of them and it was my ticket into the business world. I really don't know if the outcome would have been the same had I not done one.
Academia is a real shark tank in my experience, far more so than industry. At least in industry people want you to succeed.
Thing is, it's a less well standardised degree than a BSc. I've since hired many scientists and one thing is for sure; just because they have a a PhD does NOT mean they're competent. But it does give them the opportunity to demonstrate skills if they have them. And that I guess is the point of them- it gives you the opportunity of entering the food chain higher up than you would otherwise, but it's still down to you to prove that you're worth it.
Academia is a real shark tank in my experience, far more so than industry. At least in industry people want you to succeed.
Thing is, it's a less well standardised degree than a BSc. I've since hired many scientists and one thing is for sure; just because they have a a PhD does NOT mean they're competent. But it does give them the opportunity to demonstrate skills if they have them. And that I guess is the point of them- it gives you the opportunity of entering the food chain higher up than you would otherwise, but it's still down to you to prove that you're worth it.
Not sure if you’re single or attached OP....
Mrs OMITN did a PhD after an MSc. It was 3 years of research (funded) and a year of writing up (unfunded- well, funded by me).
My observations at the time - and true now - is that you have to have real self discipline to want to go at something like that for that length of time and the write it up (with varying qualities of supervision that might be stitching together the papers your supervisor made you write or simply doing it on your own without any real guidance - hers was the latter).
In terms of jobs afterwards, as she got towards the end of it her prior desire to go into medicine had gone (no more study) so she considered jobs in consulting or academia.
She had a natural leaning towards academia. The pay is dire for the effort she puts in, but she did make it to
Professor in one of the UK’s top universities before she was 40 and is considered the national leader in her field (like all academic disciplines it’s a small field..!).
Mrs OMITN did a PhD after an MSc. It was 3 years of research (funded) and a year of writing up (unfunded- well, funded by me).
My observations at the time - and true now - is that you have to have real self discipline to want to go at something like that for that length of time and the write it up (with varying qualities of supervision that might be stitching together the papers your supervisor made you write or simply doing it on your own without any real guidance - hers was the latter).
In terms of jobs afterwards, as she got towards the end of it her prior desire to go into medicine had gone (no more study) so she considered jobs in consulting or academia.
She had a natural leaning towards academia. The pay is dire for the effort she puts in, but she did make it to
Professor in one of the UK’s top universities before she was 40 and is considered the national leader in her field (like all academic disciplines it’s a small field..!).
On the subject of academia (obviously one of the more common routes after PhD), the nominal pay in academia is not the best, but there are side jobs e.g. consultancy which can pay well. In addition, in the right area potentially you can get on the board of companies / start ups.
Since many academics are not the most commercially aware people, if you can add that skill it becomes quite powerful.
Whereas if you follow the 'City' route like I did, unless you are Front Office the pay stagnates and you find half your work outsourced to India...actually even in FO the pay is not what it was.
Since many academics are not the most commercially aware people, if you can add that skill it becomes quite powerful.
Whereas if you follow the 'City' route like I did, unless you are Front Office the pay stagnates and you find half your work outsourced to India...actually even in FO the pay is not what it was.
Dr Slotter said:
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
cdon said:
I would qualify as a UK student.
If I could find something relating to composites, FEA or similar analysis I would be interested. Really an advancement or future technology that I’m not going to have an opportunity to explore in my current role.
Worth speaking to Sheffield uni... AMRC. If I could find something relating to composites, FEA or similar analysis I would be interested. Really an advancement or future technology that I’m not going to have an opportunity to explore in my current role.
OP - drop me message.
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
Do it because you want to... It makes little or no salary difference in engineering.
I looked at doing one to continue my rowing after my MSc. I'm really glad I was rejected when they found out I was a rower (previous student was a rower and spent all his time rowing so was never there) as it would have made Jack difference to salary.
I earn more than mates with PhDs in clanky disciplines.
Matters more for science.
This really. I looked at doing one to continue my rowing after my MSc. I'm really glad I was rejected when they found out I was a rower (previous student was a rower and spent all his time rowing so was never there) as it would have made Jack difference to salary.
I earn more than mates with PhDs in clanky disciplines.
Matters more for science.
I did one. It was fun and it's nice to put Dr. In front of your name. I was a bit stuck at the time, had a grad job lined up that fell through at the last second because of the fallout from the 2008 crash. There were essentially no grad schemes left and I really didn't like where I ended up working. So went back for a PhD. It's a nice life to be fair.
But if I had my time again. I don't think I'd bother. Earnings wise I'd have been better working those 3.5yrs.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Saturday 1st August 12:13
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Saturday 1st August 13:37
I did it as I was destined for a working life in a little dark room so I thought I'd have a change. Mine was funded by the university and having professional qualifications over my BSc meant we had a teaching timetable so there was money to be earnt too. I also worked a week day which I found out at the very end was rather frowned on but no one ever said anything. I helped coming from a working background not straight from undergrad as you had a bit more of a work ethic. Some of the latter got a bit lost (as in did nothing) as they were left to it which they weren't used to.
I don't really think it made any difference to my employability in the field and as I was never planning an academic career it was purely for the experience and to say I'd done it. I think it helps a little now as I run my own business, reassuring patients (rightly or wrongly!) who don't know us. Very occasionally I have do some work in a hospital setting and it gets a little complicated then at times.
I don't really think it made any difference to my employability in the field and as I was never planning an academic career it was purely for the experience and to say I'd done it. I think it helps a little now as I run my own business, reassuring patients (rightly or wrongly!) who don't know us. Very occasionally I have do some work in a hospital setting and it gets a little complicated then at times.
Have you seen the “PHD by Publication” route? Many universities started to offer this, it will take max 1-2 years to finish.
If you have a subject/research that already been practiced and applied in your industry, you can get your PHD by publication route in one year.
My colleague has done this recently, he had a 10 years of work published and put it into one thesis. It was intense but done.
If you have a subject/research that already been practiced and applied in your industry, you can get your PHD by publication route in one year.
My colleague has done this recently, he had a 10 years of work published and put it into one thesis. It was intense but done.
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