Holiday allowance/law

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

Assuming you all want to stay chums & you want to stay and work happy.

Is there another way of getting some benefits that won't be perceived as costing actual cash? Say, Friday afternoons off or some extra holiday or some such wheeze?

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

VeeReihenmotor6 said:

Sounds like your boss is a reasonable chap and has offered some options and accepted things have not been correct in the past.

I suppose it depends on what you want - do you a) keep to principle and chase the money at risk of loosing goodwill/a nice place to work/your income (perhaps becuase you want to leave anyway) or b) do you level with your boss and come up with an agreement that suits you both but crucially keeps trust and integrity intact (which might not mean extra money but could mean other perks - flexi time, better pension payment, ownership opportunities, promotion (the boss clearly respects and probably needs you by levelling with you on options on something that needs to be fixed) .

You posted that as I was writing mine!

[bristolbaron]

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

The bonuses are written in the contract saying "if you raise £xxxx you will get paid £xxx bonus". Re your second point, the law states that you should be remunerated as if you were working. So if, on average, you earn £xyz amount per month, by having a week off you should still get roughly £xyz, irrespective of whether you're working on a commission/bonus scheme.

A tricky one and I feel for both you and the employer!
If your contract is 10 years old and the figures haven’t been amended over that time, your targets are presumably easier to hit now.

I totally understand where you’re coming from if law has changed, and on his side also understand the strain of lost income through your holiday, but still having to pay you as if you’d earned the company that money would put an unexpected strain on finances.

Ultimately after 10 years if I knew you’re good for it I’d be offering you a salary based on last years total pay and doing away with the commission structure.

[Jordie Barretts sock]

The thing is, he cannot 'do nothing' or one of the three options.

He is legally obliged to pay you properly. If you wanted to be difficult, you could have all your underpaid holiday paid going back (I think) five years. If he then starts giving you less work, then you also have a grievance.

He's between a rock and a hard place. Not you.

Obviously the compromise is you agree to forfeit the back pay, but want the correct pay in future. If he disagrees, he's in very hot water. Ultimately it will cost a lot more than paying you correctly in the first place.

[Mortarboard]

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

So the meeting didn't go too well.

He basically said he couldn't afford an effective £5k pay rise for me and my 2 colleagues. It's a limited company so the accounts are available online....the company is doing OK.

He said 3 options:

1 - rewrites my contract, lowers commission so I earn less each month, but then get holiday pay so my annual income will be the same.
2 - we do nothing
3 - he makes me self employed.

I am not sure if he can do any of those without my strict agreement. Why is there an issue then? Well, I am happy with where I work, the atmosphere has generally been good, and I get on well with everyone. If I go for what I'm legally entitled to, I'm sure I'd get it, but my working atmosphere would be ste, I risk the boss telling the receptionists to book me fewer patients so I earn less. Or I stick with how it is now but always feel hard done by, knowing what I know. Or, I agree to an effective pay cut to get what I'm legally entitled to. He said the numbers/commission/bonuses were drawn up before this law came in......

Rock. Me. Hard place.

Well, that's unfortunate. On the face of it, you're working in a place where 15k extra a year is not sustainable.
If that's true, I'd be looking for work elsewhere on the QT. No firm with at least 5 employees should be running that close to the wind. And if it is true, the real fix is (4) Charge more for services rendered

Doing (1) is of no benefit to anyone but your boss. It actually just codifies your negative position.
Doing (3) would cost your boss more. You'd be pricing all your stuff into your contacting rate.

I'd tentatively suggest (2) and open discussions with your boss as to how the entire enterprise can be made more profitable. If he's not really open to this, then he's really happy with what he's making out of the business. And cares a lot less what you think. Are either/both receptionists family of the Boss?

The loss of the holiday works out to about a 7% loss (worst case. give or take). I could live with that, but at the same time, I'd be nervous about working somewhere that close to operating at a loss.

M.

[Jordie Barretts sock]

What he said. ^^^^^^

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

The law is in parts a bit silly. I know of a significant number of firms that ignore some of the finer details, and some like the OP’s company that ignore it altogether.

I know that doesn’t make it right. But maybe just giving it some context.

I know other firms that hold back a % of extra payments earned and pay them during holidays. This means they probably meet the law, but without it costing extra.

As said, if I really enjoyed where I worked I wouldn’t let it eat me up. I’ve worked plenty of places with worse transgressions!

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

Plus….you’ve always got some leverage up your sleeve if things ever get “messy”.

[E90_M3Ross]

This had reared its head again. At the end of November my boss said "Oh, I see what you mean about reduced pay" after taking 10 days off my gross income was under 50% of a typical month, and "I'll have a think about that".

I had heard nothing so messaged him again today and he's proposing that I sign a contract where I earn £150/month less and he pays me £1k/week for when I'm off. So ultimately quids up (loss of £1800/year but gain £4k/year). When I messaged him I said I would happily forego any back payments if we moved forwards correctly, and his proposal isn't "correct" because he's wanting me to sign an inferior contract.

I may message back saying "I think your proposal could work, but what about back pay? I would prefer we keep the current contract, receive no back pay but move forwards with your proposed £1k/month"

[Jordie Barretts sock]

Well, I take the view that if you don't ask, the answer is always no.

[E90_M3Ross]

Sorry for a thread resurrection. Looking at ACAS site they say people are entitled to 5.6 weeks of paid holiday per year. They say those that earn by commission and bonuses get 4 week's per year at that rate. It does, however, seem to suggest that they should still get 5.6 weeks per year, so does this mean that you should get 4 week's worth at full pay but 1.6 weeks at base salary, or literally just 4 weeks at full pay?

Thanks

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

I read it as 4 weeks to include average commissions & overtime & the rest at basic?

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

It's a bit mad whatever it is

[E90_M3Ross]

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

I read it as 4 weeks to include average commissions & overtime & the rest at basic?

Me too, I may phone acas when I get the chance. Cheers.

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

E90_M3Ross said:

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

I read it as 4 weeks to include average commissions & overtime & the rest at basic?

Me too, I may phone acas when I get the chance. Cheers.

Are you in dispute then? As I've posted earlier, some employment law is just nuts & is largely ignored. I think this fits in that category.

[E90_M3Ross]

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

E90_M3Ross said:

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

I read it as 4 weeks to include average commissions & overtime & the rest at basic?

Me too, I may phone acas when I get the chance. Cheers.

Are you in dispute then? As I've posted earlier, some employment law is just nuts & is largely ignored. I think this fits in that category.

We were in disputes as for 10 years I wasn't getting ANY holiday pay I'm just curious to know where I stand about the other 1.6 weeks.

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

E90_M3Ross said:

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

E90_M3Ross said:

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

I read it as 4 weeks to include average commissions & overtime & the rest at basic?

Me too, I may phone acas when I get the chance. Cheers.

Are you in dispute then? As I've posted earlier, some employment law is just nuts & is largely ignored. I think this fits in that category.

We were in disputes as for 10 years I wasn't getting ANY holiday pay I'm just curious to know where I stand about the other 1.6 weeks.

[E90_M3Ross]

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

E90_M3Ross said:

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

E90_M3Ross said:

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

I read it as 4 weeks to include average commissions & overtime & the rest at basic?

Me too, I may phone acas when I get the chance. Cheers.

Are you in dispute then? As I've posted earlier, some employment law is just nuts & is largely ignored. I think this fits in that category.

We were in disputes as for 10 years I wasn't getting ANY holiday pay I'm just curious to know where I stand about the other 1.6 weeks.

Yes. Boss said we didn't get it because we worked largely on commission. Here's a rough example.....

Bring in anything under £3500 in a month and I get my base salary only. Bring in over £3500 I start getting a percentage. If I hit £7k I get my percentage plus a bonus. Same at £10k and £12k.

It is VERY easy to hit £3500 (within 1.5 weeks or so). He said we were getting our base salary when on holiday. Put it this way, if I had a week off, not only would I lose the percentage, I also would not hit my bonus, increasing the amount lost. Having 1 week off would almost halve my monthly income.

Because of this, over the 10 years, I NEVER took my full holiday allowance.

He said "OK, I'll pay you £x per week, which is roughly what you earn" as opposed to doing it properly. In July he drafted up new contracts, I wasn't happy with it ;neither was another colleague). He's still yet to amend them and we're now mid November.

So yeah I basically have 10 years of missed holiday pay. Bit of a sore topic, for obvious reasons. Basically if he tries to sack me or something then I'm going straight to court

[E90_M3Ross]

Oh, and it turns out my base salary is below minimum wage. I'm not sure whether my boss is ignorant or crafty. I suspect the latter. Thing is, I'll never get paid less than minimum wage, however, if he were to pay me for bank holidays (which it transpires he must, to meet the minimum holiday pay allowance - the extra 1.6 weeks must be paid, even at base salary) then he'd be paying me at below minimum wage.

[HTP99]

My pay is heavily commission based, my holiday pay is my basic plus a pro rata average daily amount of commission from the previous full year commission amount.

This became law a few years ago, I believe paid overtime has to be included too (not that this affects me), this came about because many commission based employees weren't taking their full yearly holiday entitlement, due to missing out on commission, I was one, my colleague same.

E90_M3Ross said:

Oh, and it turns out my base salary is below minimum wage. I'm not sure whether my boss is ignorant or crafty. I suspect the latter. Thing is, I'll never get paid less than minimum wage, however, if he were to pay me for bank holidays (which it transpires he must, to meet the minimum holiday pay allowance - the extra 1.6 weeks must be paid, even at base salary) then he'd be paying me at below minimum wage.

Regarding your basic being below minimum wage, this has also been brought up at work, I seem to recall as long as when your commission is added and this takes you above minimum wage then this is fine, if your commission plus basic doesn't take you above minimum wage for that month then your pay has to be topped up to hit minimum wage. (I think that's the gist of it, it never affected me, I just seem to recall a conversation about it)