E46 M3, buyer questions

E46 M3, buyer questions

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Mr Whippy

Original Poster:

28,944 posts

240 months

Monday 18th December 2017
quotequote all
Random thoughts based around maybe getting one.


I've got paddles on a 335d xd and am happy enough with automatic now I'm getting older.
I'd do 90% rural and fun driving, and very occasional town/city/motorway queues, so I assume SMG will be fun in this environment?
Or am I missing a trick not going manual?
I enjoy my manual Z4 but when I do hit traffic or get into cities I hate it now.
I kinda missed out on the robot manual generation so tempted to enjoy one before it's too late.


Now they're all old I'd likely do most work myself.
Are parts reasonable prices now, and jobs quite easy?
I own a similar vintage Z4 and enjoy working on it, but the M cars are obviously a bit more special and parts more specialist? The Z4 pretty much uses boggo e46 parts so super cheap.


I've been in a CSL and I thought it was ok from a ride perspective.
But I do find my 04 Z4 too hard now. And as a backup family car the Z4 is obviously useless.
So is a normal M3 going to be a more comfy and family ish friendly backup car?
Or are there major bloopers against it being ok for 1 to maybe 2 toddlers?
It looks like the Coupe had isofix in the back.


If I budget £12,000 ish for an 06 one on average miles and make sure it's not a bad one, will £4,000 be a decent safety net for one? Or are they likely to be absorbing a lot of cash even in parts?


Is the CS worth the money as a straight M3 experience goes?
Or is any other model still better bang for buck?


I don't want to waste my time looking if it won't be right, and part of me is thinking just get a diesel Peugeot 308 GT or something.
But then you only live once and I'll miss my Z4, so an E46 M3 seems like a good idea.


Oh last thing. Is phoneix yellow rare?
I'd be happy with anything I think, but Phoenix yellow seems to me to have been 'the' colour for one.
Or is it generally seen as the one to not get?

Cheers

Dave

Smuler

2,286 posts

138 months

Monday 18th December 2017
quotequote all
Mr Whippy said:
Random thoughts based around maybe getting one.


I've got paddles on a 335d xd and am happy enough with automatic now I'm getting older.
I'd do 90% rural and fun driving, and very occasional town/city/motorway queues, so I assume SMG will be fun in this environment?
Or am I missing a trick not going manual?
I enjoy my manual Z4 but when I do hit traffic or get into cities I hate it now.
I kinda missed out on the robot manual generation so tempted to enjoy one before it's too late.


Now they're all old I'd likely do most work myself.
Are parts reasonable prices now, and jobs quite easy?
I own a similar vintage Z4 and enjoy working on it, but the M cars are obviously a bit more special and parts more specialist? The Z4 pretty much uses boggo e46 parts so super cheap.


I've been in a CSL and I thought it was ok from a ride perspective.
But I do find my 04 Z4 too hard now. And as a backup family car the Z4 is obviously useless.
So is a normal M3 going to be a more comfy and family ish friendly backup car?
Or are there major bloopers against it being ok for 1 to maybe 2 toddlers?
It looks like the Coupe had isofix in the back.


If I budget £12,000 ish for an 06 one on average miles and make sure it's not a bad one, will £4,000 be a decent safety net for one? Or are they likely to be absorbing a lot of cash even in parts?


Is the CS worth the money as a straight M3 experience goes?
Or is any other model still better bang for buck?


I don't want to waste my time looking if it won't be right, and part of me is thinking just get a diesel Peugeot 308 GT or something.
But then you only live once and I'll miss my Z4, so an E46 M3 seems like a good idea.


Oh last thing. Is phoneix yellow rare?
I'd be happy with anything I think, but Phoenix yellow seems to me to have been 'the' colour for one.
Or is it generally seen as the one to not get?

Cheers

Dave
If you do the work yourself, would this be false economy as it would surely devalue the car (as no full service history), come resale, whereas otherwise their values may hold / increase?

I can't see you getting a 06 CS for £12,000

£4000 over how long and how many miles, that will determine how many consumables you'd go through, as I think 4 tires were around £800, The MPS4s?

I don't particularly like yellow and would think as all M3's get attention, it might get you more than ideal; if you've got family.

My own bias, but I've always seen family cars as having more than 2 door so kids could be removed easily in the event of a crash. Ride is hard, thought I imagine better on 18s. Can work as family car.

I have and prefer manual. If you're throwing car around twisty roads I can see how SMG is still fun but reviews have said, particularly in auto mode, it's jerky. Not much fun for passengers?

If it's not for you, why have a Pug Disease-hell as second choice??? I swapped into my M3 from a 335i. It's not the complete fun car package on the b - roads the M3 is, but is still good , bloody fast and makes a great daily driver. Still has steering feel compared to current crop of cars, you can get DCT which is better than ordinary auto, cheaper to run.







Herr Schnell

2,342 posts

198 months

Monday 18th December 2017
quotequote all
Mr Whippy said:
Random thoughts based around maybe getting one.


I've got paddles on a 335d xd and am happy enough with automatic now I'm getting older.
I'd do 90% rural and fun driving, and very occasional town/city/motorway queues, so I assume SMG will be fun in this environment?
Or am I missing a trick not going manual?
I enjoy my manual Z4 but when I do hit traffic or get into cities I hate it now.
I kinda missed out on the robot manual generation so tempted to enjoy one before it's too late.


Now they're all old I'd likely do most work myself.
Are parts reasonable prices now, and jobs quite easy?
I own a similar vintage Z4 and enjoy working on it, but the M cars are obviously a bit more special and parts more specialist? The Z4 pretty much uses boggo e46 parts so super cheap.


I've been in a CSL and I thought it was ok from a ride perspective.
But I do find my 04 Z4 too hard now. And as a backup family car the Z4 is obviously useless.
So is a normal M3 going to be a more comfy and family ish friendly backup car?
Or are there major bloopers against it being ok for 1 to maybe 2 toddlers?
It looks like the Coupe had isofix in the back.


If I budget £12,000 ish for an 06 one on average miles and make sure it's not a bad one, will £4,000 be a decent safety net for one? Or are they likely to be absorbing a lot of cash even in parts?


Is the CS worth the money as a straight M3 experience goes?
Or is any other model still better bang for buck?


I don't want to waste my time looking if it won't be right, and part of me is thinking just get a diesel Peugeot 308 GT or something.
But then you only live once and I'll miss my Z4, so an E46 M3 seems like a good idea.


Oh last thing. Is phoneix yellow rare?
I'd be happy with anything I think, but Phoenix yellow seems to me to have been 'the' colour for one.
Or is it generally seen as the one to not get?

Cheers

Dave
The paddles in an e46 are connected to something a fair bit more primitive than the paddles in your 335 so I'd try both flavours before you decide. I did and it made my mind up to find a manual seven years ago when I was looking, the plethora of SMG related failures reported everywhere since then confirms manual was the right thing for me.

They may be old but they are quite complex and DIY fixes may result in throwing parts at a problem for some time before it's rectified. Parts are also still expensive and BMW are increasing prices on almost a monthly basis. Find a good independent and let them take care of the maintenance. That said if you take your time and find a good one there is not much beyond routing servicing which will need sorting.

Ride quality is similar to the CSL. No idea about isofix.

You won't find either a CS or an 06 for £12k which has not been recorded as Cat D or lead an incredibly tough life.

My view on the CS thing is that the premium people pay for them is a scene tax and in the real world the revisions make no appreciable difference. Other opinions are available, mainly from CS owners wink

My advice would be not to get hung up on year or mileage but to find one which has a good deal of history with the common rust areas (rear arches, front wings) sorted, rear axle carrier panel fixed (referred to as subframe fix) and either a replacement head gasket / recent compression test / price adjusted to allow for £1k replacement. A vanos overhaul would be reassuring but not a must have and the internet is awash with hype about rod bearing failures but there are not many instances reported of actual failures. £12k on the car with £4k as back up is more than sensible and should cover you, if you find one with all the common issues rectified then it will probably be worth eating into your reserve to pay the extra few thousand those cars will command.

Phoenix yellow is rare on later cars, it was an introductory colour and fell out of popularity as more people got to see it outside of a brochure and showroom. Not worth paying more for.


rassi

2,447 posts

250 months

Monday 18th December 2017
quotequote all
As others have stated, try a manual and the SMG version. I would argue that the manual is a much better bet, as the SMG by now is fairly antiquated compared to the DCT, it is after all a manual with an automated clutch. Auto mode should be forgotten about, makes no sense. Also, would think as an investment a manual would be a better bet.

However, all up to personal preference, so do try out both.

0836whimper

974 posts

197 months

Monday 18th December 2017
quotequote all
A CSL rides way firmer than a e46 M3.

fat80b

2,242 posts

220 months

Monday 18th December 2017
quotequote all
rassi said:
As others have stated, try a manual and the SMG version. I would argue that the manual is a much better bet, as the SMG by now is fairly antiquated compared to the DCT, it is after all a manual with an automated clutch. Auto mode should be forgotten about, makes no sense. Also, would think as an investment a manual would be a better bet.

However, all up to personal preference, so do try out both.
I would probably agree with this - I was looking for a Phoenix Yellow Manual a year or so ago and couldn't find a decent one at the time so I ended up with a Black (with Kiwi Leather) SMG because all of the important jobs had been done. i.e. subframe fix, SH, brakes, SMG service, exhaust etc etc

I bought on condition and mileage rather than colour and gearbox. I'd recommend doing the same.

The SMG is good but takes a bit of getting used to, Yes it is a bit clunky and for the first week or so I wished that I had held out for a manual but a year on, I'm glad I didn't. I really enjoy the SMG both in "auto" and manual mode.


Mr Whippy

Original Poster:

28,944 posts

240 months

Monday 18th December 2017
quotequote all
Thanks for all the helpful replies!


I think I'd like SMG but I do think it's a thing you'd have to get used to too.
That said I love driving my Z4 and just rev matching perfectly myself.
This will probably be the toughest choice to make.


CS, do they all have that grey interior? Even some normal M3s have it.
Is it just me or does it look a bit cheap? Is it better in the skin?


I think on age I'm happy with facelift, and it seems earlier facelift models fall into the cheaper tax brackets?
And mileage, a bit under average for age assuming it's been looked after seems to have been ok for my Z4.


Colours, ok Phoenix yellow is a bit marmite if it's got those yellow seats too haha.
I like the EB, red, techno, or silvers. I'm not keen on blacks just because they look crap unless you're a cleaning slave haha!
Wheels would have to be 19" as I'm a tart. The 18" look ok on some colours like red and blue.


I'll admit I've not done basic research on this, so sorry to ask, but this chassis issue. A friend had it on a 330Ci years back but I've forgotten the details.
Is this the same on all E46 inc M3?
Can I do a visual inspection under boot liner etc? Or is it under the car proper?
Or should I be looking for some official ish evidence?


I'm kinda looking at spending £12,000-£16,000, and say £1,500 reserve on top for issues (assuming no catastrophic failures which I'd just have to live with)

So spending less is better as I have more in reserve.
Then again more is better if it'll pay dividends on residuals and less things to fix.


I'll do maybe 4k-6k a year, but I'm not going to spend my life washing it, or start only driving it in summer when it doesn't rain.
It'll hopefully be garaged. It should get a good couple of runs a week that get it warmed right through.
I'll avoid using it at salty times in winter.

I'm not expecting to see it's value go up, but I assume a well kept one that's kept tidy and in full working order will do ok on residuals from this point on? Ie, not halve in 3yrs?


Is now a good time of year to be buying one?


Thanks again

Dave

Smuler

2,286 posts

138 months

Tuesday 19th December 2017
quotequote all
Good for you on not considering a garage “Queen” : that’s the sort of miles I do.
CS have various interiors.
I detest grey leather in the flesh
Subframe requires a thorough check , so I’d say up on a ramp.

Don’t see any situation where residuals will be bad on a car getting rarer.

Can’t see why these relatively rare cars are seasonal re: prices.

I think to get exactly what you want start looking ASAP and make sure you drive several. Was impressed with first one I nearly bought but somehow it didn’t drive as good as the one I bought wink

I like carbon black with red interior and yeah , 19s look better wink

Mr Whippy

Original Poster:

28,944 posts

240 months

Tuesday 19th December 2017
quotequote all
There are two good garages nearby ish, one with a CS at £17, another a manual facelift for similar money (must be mint)

So I can at least start looking.

And they seem to hang around a while so I won't worry about one I see and like instantly disappearing, if there are others to go see.


Now the process of cashing out some bitcoin haha. Let's see how this goes smile

e30m3Mark

16,205 posts

172 months

Tuesday 19th December 2017
quotequote all
Personally I think SMG aren't as bad as the internet might have you believe. It may be a little dimwitted when manoeuvring but, for the most part, it's perfectly acceptable and up to the job being asked of it. A CSL software upgrade is a worthwhile modification though.

Imola red cars usually command a premium and are my own preference. Just look at as many cars as you can and buy the best you can find.

Mr Whippy

Original Poster:

28,944 posts

240 months

Tuesday 19th December 2017
quotequote all
I was watching a chap on YouTube who was tinkering with SMG data and engine data, and going for a run down some country lanes.

It made me realise I'd missed the joy of this engine type and gearbox combo.

Now everything is going 'smooth' zf8 or is turbo, the joys of instant NA power in combo with a robot doing your clutch and gear selector as fast as possible is a thing that's just gonna disappear unless you get one of the classic and arguably better implementations of it in a good car!
It only really appeared with the E36 M3 and F355 F1, and was kinda gone a decade later with DCT/DSG/ZF autos and turbos.

I think only the Aventador has stuck with a robot manual and high rev NA.

So from a driving history POV those SMG M3s to me at least seem a fleeting and quite unique time.


I think I'll go look at that CS with grey interior tomorrow maybe.
Just sit in it and decide if I could live with it, see how big it is in the back/boot etc.

Smuler

2,286 posts

138 months

Wednesday 20th December 2017
quotequote all
Don’t just sit in it , take it for a drive wink

Gruber

6,313 posts

213 months

Wednesday 20th December 2017
quotequote all
SMG is fine for fun weekend use but a bit of a ball-ache for day to day life: parallel parking on a slope, for example, used to bring me out in a cold sweat. As mentioned, the SMG pumps don't last forever and are costly to replace (ask me how I know!), but you might find one that's already been done. SMG is not an automatic box though, and will be jerky if you try to use it as such. If you think SMG will make city driving more bearable, I fear you'll be disappointed.

The CS does give you something extra beyond "scene tax" - the quicker steering rack is the most immediately appreciable difference, IMHO (and of course, you can get it in Interlagos blue with those nice CSL-style wheels...) - but the standard car is very, very good and saves you a chunk of cash.

You'll need to get the boot floor checked, of course. And they seem to treat rear springs as consumables, so again just factor that in.


Gruber

6,313 posts

213 months

Wednesday 20th December 2017
quotequote all
It's perhaps also worth saying that your £16k will get you an e92 M3... the DCT box in those is much more modern, and very well suited to the V8's power delivery.


Mr Whippy

Original Poster:

28,944 posts

240 months

Wednesday 20th December 2017
quotequote all
I'd actually been considering a 4dr V8 M3 a bit instead of the 335d Xd.

For me the E46 M3 just holds an appeal that the V8 one can't come close to.

And I really like my Z4 and my wife and I are sad it'll have to go. It feels very honest and simply engineered, and I'm so familiar with the E46 DNA that having an M car with that same feel just seems logical to me because I know it'll feel right.

I think as long as it doesn't have a tape player I'll be happy biggrin

Dave

e30m3Mark

16,205 posts

172 months

Wednesday 20th December 2017
quotequote all
E46 is a very different car obviously and for me it was the last thoroughbred M3.

As an aside, what is it exactly that some folk find so bad about the SMG gear change? It's a bit dimwitted around town admittedly, but perfectly manageable if you adapt your driving style accordingly surely?

0836whimper

974 posts

197 months

Thursday 21st December 2017
quotequote all
Gruber said:
SMG is fine for fun weekend use but a bit of a ball-ache for day to day life: parallel parking on a slope, for example, used to bring me out in a cold sweat.
I thought SMG had a feature designed for hill starts/parking ?

Davidonly

1,080 posts

192 months

Thursday 21st December 2017
quotequote all
0836whimper said:
Gruber said:
SMG is fine for fun weekend use but a bit of a ball-ache for day to day life: parallel parking on a slope, for example, used to bring me out in a cold sweat.
I thought SMG had a feature designed for hill starts/parking ?
You can use the handbrake like any other manual. Never had a single problem parking mine etc.

SebringMan

1,773 posts

185 months

Friday 22nd December 2017
quotequote all
Right, I still have my E46 M3 and yes it has the hater's gearbox on here. I've also until very recently had the M3 as my daily driver. That's regarding around town, travelling to work, even doing European trips in it during the two years I have owned it.

What fat80b, e30m3mark have said is very true. When I first had mine for the first day I kind of wished I got a manual. That feeling went with the more I used mine and when I drove a manual ; they aren’t as awesome as people make out ; for instance my MX-5 and my Escort RST (albeit with a Puma shifter & short shift kit) were nicer gear shifters. People moan about my W124 having a slow ‘manual box’ but TBH it feels no different to the manual M3s I’ve driven. It’s certainly better than a mate’s E46 328i with a new clutch and no CDV. It's funny how a few manual owners here have gone changing bushes, clutches and so on soon after getting one too...

Time to dispell a few rumours. Yes it can be a little annoying in town but really I'd put that down to a willingless to learn about another type of gearbox. I find mine fine around town and have indeed made good progress too. The auto mode isn't too bad with practice either.

Me? I quite enjoy the learning experience and like a number of old cars I've owned it certainly adds another aspect to the experience. For instance in a non-CSL software'd car you can still heel & toe. Yes, really wink. It's a quirky feature too.

Uphill starts and parking are nowhere near as bad as the haters and JC would have you believe. I manage just fine in mine and so does my dad. You can either use the handbrake, quickly move the right foot from brake to accelerator as you would in a manual. Just treat the gas pedal as if you have control of the biting point.

FWIW mine seemed slow when I got it. A few things however have improved it massively:
-Me ; for instance with a bit of throttle (not too much) the speeds of the changes speed up alot as does higher RPM
-SMGs IMHO can seem bad on a poorly maintained car. With a number of widebody specialists out there this can exaggerate that. On mine it's not the same car since I've done the Inspection 1 correctly and used quality parts wherever possible.
-Oh, and the CSL rev-match software. This IMHO transformed the gearbchanges the most by far.

If you really hate the SMG that much you can always convert them to a manual and ensure that you end up with a car with a good ‘box too as a few owners have. You also won’t have the wear on the ‘box of overenthusiastic ‘manual’ owners either. There are easier ways to convert them and get a nice shifting manual (for instance the CAE/RTD shifter allows you to have a sweet shifting 'box with no mods to the SMG's bellhousing).

This brings me onto another point. Manual, SMG, grey or black interior I’d buy on condition. They are not a cheap car to run and a bad one of any kind will bite you hard financially. I almost sacked off my search with the amount of chod I saw and I saw a few cars. I still wonder if I should have done but I do love the drive,

To hopefully not scare you, here’s my thread. I also have a breakdown of the costs in the garage section of my profile. I’ll say one thing though. The only times my car has seen a garage has been for the MOT, the RACP reinforcement and the respray

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=15...

My search for one:

https://theleylandlegends.wordpress.com/category/c...

SebringMan

1,773 posts

185 months

Friday 22nd December 2017
quotequote all
Davidonly said:
You can use the handbrake like any other manual. Never had a single problem parking mine etc.
This

I forgot to say. If you are in Warwickshire I'm happy to take you for a drive in mine. I can appreciate buyers can get funny about these things.