Will I hate an e92 m3
Discussion
Wills2 said:
Same for any performance car 2nd/3rd are the gears you use on a spirited run, 4th if you like to gear up coming out of a high speed bend but that's how it is in a powerful car if you want to keep you licence whilst enjoying the S65's incredible response and high rev performance.
The road plays a big part. On the wide sweepers of the Scottish west coast, 4th in the F80 (DCT) is pretty much the only gear you'll ever need... Takes you from half the NSL to more than twice the NSL (if so inclined) in relatively short order. So I'm told. When you consider that the newer turbo M3 does 0 to 100 in 8.5 secs versus 10.5 secs for the E92 M3, the newer car is a fair bit quicker and much stronger in the mid range. 295 Ib/ft plays 406 Ib/ft for the turbo car is a pretty big difference.
I bet with a map the turbo M3 must be an absolute weapon.
I bet with a map the turbo M3 must be an absolute weapon.
Certainly if you are a "lazy" driver that likes torque on tap at any rpm then the E92 M3 is maybe not the car for you.
OTOH (and assuming you like the DCT) if you like use the gearbox to ensure you are in the correct gear for the performance you want, then blatting down country roads running the engine up to 8k revs is about as good as it gets for fun in a car.
The M4 with more power/torque is a fun car to drive until you really want to run the car on the edge where the inconsistent throttle response can't give you the same confidence that the E92 M3 gives.
OTOH (and assuming you like the DCT) if you like use the gearbox to ensure you are in the correct gear for the performance you want, then blatting down country roads running the engine up to 8k revs is about as good as it gets for fun in a car.
The M4 with more power/torque is a fun car to drive until you really want to run the car on the edge where the inconsistent throttle response can't give you the same confidence that the E92 M3 gives.
janesmith1950 said:
Wills2 said:
Same for any performance car 2nd/3rd are the gears you use on a spirited run, 4th if you like to gear up coming out of a high speed bend but that's how it is in a powerful car if you want to keep you licence whilst enjoying the S65's incredible response and high rev performance.
The road plays a big part. On the wide sweepers of the Scottish west coast, 4th in the F80 (DCT) is pretty much the only gear you'll ever need... Takes you from half the NSL to more than twice the NSL (if so inclined) in relatively short order. So I'm told. Edited by Wills2 on Sunday 31st December 18:21
Mr Whippy said:
I'm going to have to do torque to weight @ wheels plots for E9x vs F3x M cars.
I'm baffled how the new cars are THAT much faster in higher gears when their power to weights are so similar.
Unless the new turbo is underrated on output?
Overall It's faster because it makes more power across its rev range than the S65 comparing the power/weight ratio doesn't tell you the whole story the S55 holds 431hp from 5500rpm to 7300rpm the S65 makes 420hp for a split second at 8300rpm. I'm baffled how the new cars are THAT much faster in higher gears when their power to weights are so similar.
Unless the new turbo is underrated on output?
You can't keep the S65 at 420hp but you can with the S55 as each gear change puts you right back at 431hp, BMW released this graphic below at launch to explain.
Edited by Wills2 on Sunday 31st December 18:58
cerb4.5lee said:
When you consider that the newer turbo M3 does 0 to 100 in 8.5 secs versus 10.5 secs for the E92 M3, the newer car is a fair bit quicker and much stronger in the mid range. 295 Ib/ft plays 406 Ib/ft for the turbo car is a pretty big difference.
I bet with a map the turbo M3 must be an absolute weapon.
Lol PH the day when 8.5 seconds to 100mph is meh and then there is the option to enhance that Cars performance only then is it a weapon. Lol. I bet with a map the turbo M3 must be an absolute weapon.
Wills2 said:
Overall It's faster because it makes more power across its rev range than the S65 comparing the power/weight ratio doesn't tell you the whole story the S55 holds 431hp from 5500rpm to 7300rpm the S65 makes 420hp for a split second at 8300rpm.
You can't keep the S65 at 420hp but you can with the S55 as each gear change puts you right back at 431hp, BMW released this graphic below at launch to explain.
Good graphic, however a bit biased because the X axis should be normalised.You can't keep the S65 at 420hp but you can with the S55 as each gear change puts you right back at 431hp, BMW released this graphic below at launch to explain.
Edited by Wills2 on Sunday 31st December 18:58
Unless the V8 has 8000/7000 x longer gears, or about 15% longer gears, then comparing at certain rpm points is wrong.
The V8 graph should be pushed to the left 15%
It still leaves the turbo doing well, but much less so than it appears.
I'm far from saying the turbo is no good, just I think a lot of the feeling that the V8 is poor down low is because it sparkles so much at the top the bottom feels poor.
Also NA can feel slower than the surging turbo push coming in over time.
Humans are good at sensing change in acceleration but not detecting constant magnitude acceleration (like gravity)
NA kicks instantly and pushes quite constantly, while turbo delivery is more feelsome.
Hmmmm
Wills2 said:
Overall It's faster because it makes more power across its rev range than the S65 comparing the power/weight ratio doesn't tell you the whole story the S55 holds 431hp from 5500rpm to 7300rpm the S65 makes 420hp for a split second at 8300rpm.
You can't keep the S65 at 420hp but you can with the S55 as each gear change puts you right back at 431hp, BMW released this graphic below at launch to explain.
Wow impressive You can't keep the S65 at 420hp but you can with the S55 as each gear change puts you right back at 431hp, BMW released this graphic below at launch to explain.
Edited by Wills2 on Sunday 31st December 18:58
Making 300bhp @3k revs - GOLF R get out of the way 😁.
I’d wager the gearbox too makes a big difference 8 speed ZF v the DCT 7 speed.
Launch control has improved too.
However TWO SECONDS faster to 100mph is massive especially at this cutting edge level.
Heck that M3 is as fast as the F10 M5!!!!
Welshbeef said:
cerb4.5lee said:
When you consider that the newer turbo M3 does 0 to 100 in 8.5 secs versus 10.5 secs for the E92 M3, the newer car is a fair bit quicker and much stronger in the mid range. 295 Ib/ft plays 406 Ib/ft for the turbo car is a pretty big difference.
I bet with a map the turbo M3 must be an absolute weapon.
Lol PH the day when 8.5 seconds to 100mph is meh and then there is the option to enhance that Cars performance only then is it a weapon. Lol. I bet with a map the turbo M3 must be an absolute weapon.
It amazes me that the turbo M3 can do those figures, my Cerbera was 8.3 to 100 and it weighed much less, the turbo M3 has awesome performance in my eyes...hence why I'd love one, the E92 M3 did leave me flat in terms of performance though.
Mr Whippy said:
I'm going to have to do torque to weight @ wheels plots for E9x vs F3x M cars.
I'm baffled how the new cars are THAT much faster in higher gears when their power to weights are so similar.
Unless the new turbo is underrated on output?
Well, BHP is top speed, while Torque is how quickly you get there.I'm baffled how the new cars are THAT much faster in higher gears when their power to weights are so similar.
Unless the new turbo is underrated on output?
So cars with turbocharged engines are going to feel very quick, even if the top speed is the same...
Power = mass x acceleration x speed
To accelerate faster at a given mass and at a given speed, you need more power.
Torque at a given rpm ~ power, so you can just use power everywhere and ignore the torque 'value'
430bhp over 20% of the rev range is why the E3x M cars are so fast, vs 400bhp peak for the E9x M cars.
After the traction limited 1st gear it's making 430bhp constantly through 2nd, 3rd and 4th, vs about 320-400bhp through 2nd and 3rd in the V8 one.
Still both should be amply fast day to day even whilst not trying and using only the lower rev range.
My 335d is 313bhp and it's hard to find roads where you can use all the go, and I live in the Yorkshire Dales with empty roads!
Give me drama and instant response and linear output and sound, over outright pace, in an M car.
My 2p, the next M3/4 will be the ones to get as BMW M start doing e-turbo or regen systems like McLaren P1 so the 'lag' and inconsistent delivery of a turbo is removed in favour of flat strong outputs with instant response.
To accelerate faster at a given mass and at a given speed, you need more power.
Torque at a given rpm ~ power, so you can just use power everywhere and ignore the torque 'value'
430bhp over 20% of the rev range is why the E3x M cars are so fast, vs 400bhp peak for the E9x M cars.
After the traction limited 1st gear it's making 430bhp constantly through 2nd, 3rd and 4th, vs about 320-400bhp through 2nd and 3rd in the V8 one.
Still both should be amply fast day to day even whilst not trying and using only the lower rev range.
My 335d is 313bhp and it's hard to find roads where you can use all the go, and I live in the Yorkshire Dales with empty roads!
Give me drama and instant response and linear output and sound, over outright pace, in an M car.
My 2p, the next M3/4 will be the ones to get as BMW M start doing e-turbo or regen systems like McLaren P1 so the 'lag' and inconsistent delivery of a turbo is removed in favour of flat strong outputs with instant response.
It’s the only car I’d consider swapping my E92 330d for but I just can’t justify the extra 10k for a similar car of a similar age. There’s a lovely example at a garage near me for £16,000 which I know is a good price and I’d love to tell myself to man up and forget about the cash but my mapped 330d is such a great machine I just don’t want to part with it. My advice to the OP would be go drive one and I’ll be very surprised if you don’t like it.
janesmith1950 said:
What I like about the F80 is that there's still a top end. It doesn't peter out as some turbo engines tend to. Overtaking at the to end of 3rd or 4th, it's an animal.
Top end of 3rd and 4th you say on the public highway is 100-150mph... hmm best not get caught doing that or you will be doing porridge. Jail time Been reading this with interest and thought I'd set up an E92 vs F82 on my powertrain app.
Engine curves modelled:
Gear Ratios:
Mapped engine torque against gear ratios to give wheel torque vs wheel speed, aka the 'Thrust Curve'.
As you can see, the gear ratios go a long way to equalising the two cars when revved out all the way.
Changing gear at lower RPM, say 5000rpm, paints a very different picture, the F82 is clearly much, much faster.
Link to it here so you can have a play around with it: https://www.blackartgraphics.com/pages/powertrain-...
Engine curves modelled:
Gear Ratios:
Mapped engine torque against gear ratios to give wheel torque vs wheel speed, aka the 'Thrust Curve'.
As you can see, the gear ratios go a long way to equalising the two cars when revved out all the way.
Changing gear at lower RPM, say 5000rpm, paints a very different picture, the F82 is clearly much, much faster.
Link to it here so you can have a play around with it: https://www.blackartgraphics.com/pages/powertrain-...
Welshbeef said:
That link gives a 10 second E92 to 100mph not the correct 10.5 and also 9.6 for the F30 not the correct 8.5 seconds.
Will that make more of a difference to the graphs?
Won't make any difference to the charts, they just map engine torque against wheel speed. Will that make more of a difference to the graphs?
All things considered, I honestly cannot tell where it would make up that extra two seconds, when you bring the gear ratios into the mix the F82 really doesn't have that big of an advantage when using the full rev range on the V8...
Edited by Kozy on Monday 1st January 14:43
Edited by Kozy on Monday 1st January 14:50
Gassing Station | M Power | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff