E61 M5: Is the auto mode really that bad, and a Q on values
Discussion
Hi all,
A couple of years ago I had a W204 C63 AMG Estate, which I loved and deeply regret selling. That car confirmed to me that the reality of owning a performance estate was, in fact, every bit as good as how I imagined it.
I'm looking at getting another fast wagon, and even though I could get another 6.2 AMG (they are more common), I really want an E61. They're rare, sound amazing, slightly bigger than the C-Class (which I'd like) and lets face it, no one is ever going to put an engine like that in an estate ever again.
Anyway, I have a couple of questions:
Firstly, I see a lot of complaints about the auto mode being bad. What exactly makes it so bad? I drive with hand controls and so will be using the auto mode most of the time.
Secondly, What price, roughly, should I be looking at? It seems most are being listed at £18-22k or so, with the odd high miles one beiong lower. WBAC gives a trade in value of £11k, so high teens from a dealer seems about right?
There's one for sale at the moment with Tier One Automotive at £27k! The salesman claimed a deposit had been put down when I called him today, which seems a little odd given the price, but maybe it isn't? Surely even given the low (ish) miles, that's no more than a £22k car. The diff has been replaced, but no mention of any SMG/clutch work and the big end bearings haven't been done.
Any advice anyone can offer would be useful, I've read through Eddie's buyers guide which is brilliant, and I think I have a reasonable idea of what could go wrong and how much to budget for it.
A couple of years ago I had a W204 C63 AMG Estate, which I loved and deeply regret selling. That car confirmed to me that the reality of owning a performance estate was, in fact, every bit as good as how I imagined it.
I'm looking at getting another fast wagon, and even though I could get another 6.2 AMG (they are more common), I really want an E61. They're rare, sound amazing, slightly bigger than the C-Class (which I'd like) and lets face it, no one is ever going to put an engine like that in an estate ever again.
Anyway, I have a couple of questions:
Firstly, I see a lot of complaints about the auto mode being bad. What exactly makes it so bad? I drive with hand controls and so will be using the auto mode most of the time.
Secondly, What price, roughly, should I be looking at? It seems most are being listed at £18-22k or so, with the odd high miles one beiong lower. WBAC gives a trade in value of £11k, so high teens from a dealer seems about right?
There's one for sale at the moment with Tier One Automotive at £27k! The salesman claimed a deposit had been put down when I called him today, which seems a little odd given the price, but maybe it isn't? Surely even given the low (ish) miles, that's no more than a £22k car. The diff has been replaced, but no mention of any SMG/clutch work and the big end bearings haven't been done.
Any advice anyone can offer would be useful, I've read through Eddie's buyers guide which is brilliant, and I think I have a reasonable idea of what could go wrong and how much to budget for it.
I had a V10 M6 from new so had lots of experience with the transmission.
Under low acceleration it is ok but if you gun it the shifts are horrible. I used to use the paddles if I was running hard. A slight lift off the throttle when changing did the job fine. I got used to it and was able to manage the transmission problem after that.
It is certainly no DCT but it can be managed. The engine is however amazing. It is also amazing on fuel consumption. In city traffic I got about 10 mph. I loved it though.
Under low acceleration it is ok but if you gun it the shifts are horrible. I used to use the paddles if I was running hard. A slight lift off the throttle when changing did the job fine. I got used to it and was able to manage the transmission problem after that.
It is certainly no DCT but it can be managed. The engine is however amazing. It is also amazing on fuel consumption. In city traffic I got about 10 mph. I loved it though.
Edited by RDMcG on Tuesday 29th September 15:26
The auto mode on the E46 and E60 SMG is pretty bad for general use. It only really works if you use a slow change setting and tiny throttle openings, such that you're hardly accelerating at all when the gearchange happens. Otherwise, you just get to "nod" along with your passengers every time it changes. The only time I occasionally use it is in very slow traffic jams. Or you can challenge yourself to drive home from work in full auto mode without provoking a single "nod", but that quickly gets boring
Humm. Well, if it's just not that smooth at low speed, that doesn't sound like such a big deal really. I had a previous generation automatic Fiesta which was utterly slated for it's jerky gearbox at low speed, and it never bothered me that much. I probably should have been clearer, it won't often be used in auto, it'll always be used in auto.
It won't be an everyday car as I plan on getting either a Honda E or Fiat 500 La Prima to sit alongside the Lotus and BMW.
Still, I might need to see if I can go out in one (test driving isn't possible due to the hand control requirement) in auto mode and see how bad it really can be. Any offers?
And does anyone have any thoughts on the pricing issue? If they are starting command prices of nearly £30k for a decent one then I might be out anyway, that's not that expensive overall but seems like a lot for a car with many known faults where a warranty from Mondial isn't all that cheap.
It won't be an everyday car as I plan on getting either a Honda E or Fiat 500 La Prima to sit alongside the Lotus and BMW.
Still, I might need to see if I can go out in one (test driving isn't possible due to the hand control requirement) in auto mode and see how bad it really can be. Any offers?
And does anyone have any thoughts on the pricing issue? If they are starting command prices of nearly £30k for a decent one then I might be out anyway, that's not that expensive overall but seems like a lot for a car with many known faults where a warranty from Mondial isn't all that cheap.
leglessAlex said:
Humm. Well, if it's just not that smooth at low speed, that doesn't sound like such a big deal really. I had a previous generation automatic Fiesta which was utterly slated for it's jerky gearbox at low speed, and it never bothered me that much. I probably should have been clearer, it won't often be used in auto, it'll always be used in auto.
It won't be an everyday car as I plan on getting either a Honda E or Fiat 500 La Prima to sit alongside the Lotus and BMW.
Still, I might need to see if I can go out in one (test driving isn't possible due to the hand control requirement) in auto mode and see how bad it really can be. Any offers?
And does anyone have any thoughts on the pricing issue? If they are starting command prices of nearly £30k for a decent one then I might be out anyway, that's not that expensive overall but seems like a lot for a car with many known faults where a warranty from Mondial isn't all that cheap.
Think you've misunderstood. The auto mode is only OK when driven like a granny. At any sort of normal speed it's completely unacceptable. If you can't use the paddles, don't buy the car. Honestly.It won't be an everyday car as I plan on getting either a Honda E or Fiat 500 La Prima to sit alongside the Lotus and BMW.
Still, I might need to see if I can go out in one (test driving isn't possible due to the hand control requirement) in auto mode and see how bad it really can be. Any offers?
And does anyone have any thoughts on the pricing issue? If they are starting command prices of nearly £30k for a decent one then I might be out anyway, that's not that expensive overall but seems like a lot for a car with many known faults where a warranty from Mondial isn't all that cheap.
outnumbered said:
Think you've misunderstood. The auto mode is only OK when driven like a granny. At any sort of normal speed it's completely unacceptable. If you can't use the paddles, don't buy the car. Honestly.
Very much this. An E63 AMG or F10 M5 would be much more suitable, the E60 M5 auto mode is a total mismatch to that glorious engine. Manual mode only (you can use the gearlever for this, of course)I’ve had e46 smg for years. Tested m5 smg and currently own a c63 6.2.
The smg gearbox whilst easy to criticise isn’t bad enough for me to not buy either car.
Same as said. I always used manual mode as auto was dumb.
I actually find banging through the gears with a thump in s6 quite satisfying.
Go for it. There were 2 x e60 m5 hauling ass around thruxton this week. Epic car.
The smg gearbox whilst easy to criticise isn’t bad enough for me to not buy either car.
Same as said. I always used manual mode as auto was dumb.
I actually find banging through the gears with a thump in s6 quite satisfying.
Go for it. There were 2 x e60 m5 hauling ass around thruxton this week. Epic car.
I had my M6 for 18 months and never used the automatic function on the gearbox.
Changing gears was never an issue either, just a very slight lift off the throttle (like a manual gearbox) when changing up or down and it was pretty smooth.
I only ever had issues with the transmission when it needed replacing and it would give orange warning symbols in the dashboard. Once I sorted the clutch/flywheel issue I never had a single issue ever again regarding the transmission. It ran pretty much like new if I am being honest.
Changing gears was never an issue either, just a very slight lift off the throttle (like a manual gearbox) when changing up or down and it was pretty smooth.
I only ever had issues with the transmission when it needed replacing and it would give orange warning symbols in the dashboard. Once I sorted the clutch/flywheel issue I never had a single issue ever again regarding the transmission. It ran pretty much like new if I am being honest.
Aww man, it's not looking likely. I still think trying to get a ride in one is a good idea, because I do really really want one, but I might have to make the pragmatic choice for the first time ever in my life.
Has to be an estate, so unless I want to pour money into a custom built F11 M5 (would be awesome, but no thanks) the alternatives are an RS6 or an E63, which are probably far better cars in most objective senses, but come on, I need to have that engine in my life at some point.
Has to be an estate, so unless I want to pour money into a custom built F11 M5 (would be awesome, but no thanks) the alternatives are an RS6 or an E63, which are probably far better cars in most objective senses, but come on, I need to have that engine in my life at some point.
leglessAlex said:
Aww man, it's not looking likely. I still think trying to get a ride in one is a good idea, because I do really really want one, but I might have to make the pragmatic choice for the first time ever in my life.
Has to be an estate, so unless I want to pour money into a custom built F11 M5 (would be awesome, but no thanks) the alternatives are an RS6 or an E63, which are probably far better cars in most objective senses, but come on, I need to have that engine in my life at some point.
If you were closer to me I'd happily take you out in my E60. Has to be an estate, so unless I want to pour money into a custom built F11 M5 (would be awesome, but no thanks) the alternatives are an RS6 or an E63, which are probably far better cars in most objective senses, but come on, I need to have that engine in my life at some point.
I ran a e61 for 2 years and 25k ish. Bought with 35k miles sold just under 60.
I used auto mode when I first got it - and it was woeful. Sluggish, not particularly smooth changes not patch on a proper auto or dsg. Then again it wasn’t designed to be that. It’s an automated manual.
Driven like that - it’s fine. As some one else posted, off the throttle a little, change gear it works ok. I used it as a daily, twice daily school run, blasts to northern Scotland for work and it was brilliant. Turn the gear change speed up to L6 and drive it hard and it’s a proper bit of kit, gears bang in.
Just be aware, they were £70k+ new. When it goes wrong, and it will, expect bills to reflect the list price of the car. Mine had £9k if warranty work, and didn’t need a clutch.
I used auto mode when I first got it - and it was woeful. Sluggish, not particularly smooth changes not patch on a proper auto or dsg. Then again it wasn’t designed to be that. It’s an automated manual.
Driven like that - it’s fine. As some one else posted, off the throttle a little, change gear it works ok. I used it as a daily, twice daily school run, blasts to northern Scotland for work and it was brilliant. Turn the gear change speed up to L6 and drive it hard and it’s a proper bit of kit, gears bang in.
Just be aware, they were £70k+ new. When it goes wrong, and it will, expect bills to reflect the list price of the car. Mine had £9k if warranty work, and didn’t need a clutch.
I had an E61 M5 for some 8 years. I would describe the shifting in auto mode like the shifts of a manual gearbox car being performed by a novice driver - jerky and quickly getting annoying. The issue is compounded by the timing of the shifts being determined by the computer so coming at virtually unpredictable timings. I would be surprised if many people use auto mode for long.
In general it's not a gearbox for trundling around in urban traffic; it's great on the open road when you determine your road speed rather than having it dictated by the traffic ahead of you.
In general it's not a gearbox for trundling around in urban traffic; it's great on the open road when you determine your road speed rather than having it dictated by the traffic ahead of you.
To the OP.
I'm assuming your use of hand controls is driven by inability to use your legs (for whatever reason).
To that end, I imagine that driving like a manual (ie with slight throttle lifts between changes) is going to be less straight forward (and possibly ultimately a pain in the backside).
I ran an E61 M5 for a bit over a year and (warranty work aside - £6.5k in a year for throttle actuators, Traction control unit, tailgait wiring etc) I didn't enjoy the experience. Oddly, I quite enjoyed the gearbox as it gave a very mechanical feel, but in auto mode it wasn't great. Its very clunky and spoils things a bit. I'd imagine that trying to manage the gearbox and throttle by hand around town would become tiresome.
I had 2 bigger issues with the car however.
First was the engine, which I found poorly suited to the car. Its a cracker of a lump, but it really needs to be revved to make it go, and the majority of my time was spent with the kids in the car at sub 5k rpm, where the engine felt like it wasn't in its element. This was in contrast to my B10 V8 Alpina which had gobs of torque and was, in almost every way, a better daily car. Don't get me wrong, when you're really ragging the daylights out of it, the M5 comes alive, but as most of my driving wasn't at 10/10s, for the most part it felt muted (aka dull).
The second part wasn't fuel economy (which was utterly woeful) but the stupidly small tank. We took the car away on holiday once and I literally had to fill up every 2-3 days, which became something of a standing joke.
Glad I had one, also glad I sold it. High revving V10 aside, its a flawed car.
In contrast, I subsequently tried an E63 6.2 with the MCT box and as a daily, its miles better, mainly due to the gearbox and the torque curve which makes punting it about at everyday revs and speeds hilarious (at the expense of not being able to rev it to 8500 rpm once in a while).
All just my 2c, but I'd think long and hard about the M5.
Just a thought, but if you've the budget, I suspect a newer 550i with the zf 8spd would be an excellent option (if you can find one).
I'm assuming your use of hand controls is driven by inability to use your legs (for whatever reason).
To that end, I imagine that driving like a manual (ie with slight throttle lifts between changes) is going to be less straight forward (and possibly ultimately a pain in the backside).
I ran an E61 M5 for a bit over a year and (warranty work aside - £6.5k in a year for throttle actuators, Traction control unit, tailgait wiring etc) I didn't enjoy the experience. Oddly, I quite enjoyed the gearbox as it gave a very mechanical feel, but in auto mode it wasn't great. Its very clunky and spoils things a bit. I'd imagine that trying to manage the gearbox and throttle by hand around town would become tiresome.
I had 2 bigger issues with the car however.
First was the engine, which I found poorly suited to the car. Its a cracker of a lump, but it really needs to be revved to make it go, and the majority of my time was spent with the kids in the car at sub 5k rpm, where the engine felt like it wasn't in its element. This was in contrast to my B10 V8 Alpina which had gobs of torque and was, in almost every way, a better daily car. Don't get me wrong, when you're really ragging the daylights out of it, the M5 comes alive, but as most of my driving wasn't at 10/10s, for the most part it felt muted (aka dull).
The second part wasn't fuel economy (which was utterly woeful) but the stupidly small tank. We took the car away on holiday once and I literally had to fill up every 2-3 days, which became something of a standing joke.
Glad I had one, also glad I sold it. High revving V10 aside, its a flawed car.
In contrast, I subsequently tried an E63 6.2 with the MCT box and as a daily, its miles better, mainly due to the gearbox and the torque curve which makes punting it about at everyday revs and speeds hilarious (at the expense of not being able to rev it to 8500 rpm once in a while).
All just my 2c, but I'd think long and hard about the M5.
Just a thought, but if you've the budget, I suspect a newer 550i with the zf 8spd would be an excellent option (if you can find one).
Cactussed said:
To the OP.
I'm assuming your use of hand controls is driven by inability to use your legs (for whatever reason).
To that end, I imagine that driving like a manual (ie with slight throttle lifts between changes) is going to be less straight forward (and possibly ultimately a pain in the backside).
I ran an E61 M5 for a bit over a year and (warranty work aside - £6.5k in a year for throttle actuators, Traction control unit, tailgait wiring etc) I didn't enjoy the experience. Oddly, I quite enjoyed the gearbox as it gave a very mechanical feel, but in auto mode it wasn't great. Its very clunky and spoils things a bit. I'd imagine that trying to manage the gearbox and throttle by hand around town would become tiresome.
I had 2 bigger issues with the car however.
First was the engine, which I found poorly suited to the car. Its a cracker of a lump, but it really needs to be revved to make it go, and the majority of my time was spent with the kids in the car at sub 5k rpm, where the engine felt like it wasn't in its element. This was in contrast to my B10 V8 Alpina which had gobs of torque and was, in almost every way, a better daily car. Don't get me wrong, when you're really ragging the daylights out of it, the M5 comes alive, but as most of my driving wasn't at 10/10s, for the most part it felt muted (aka dull).
The second part wasn't fuel economy (which was utterly woeful) but the stupidly small tank. We took the car away on holiday once and I literally had to fill up every 2-3 days, which became something of a standing joke.
Glad I had one, also glad I sold it. High revving V10 aside, its a flawed car.
In contrast, I subsequently tried an E63 6.2 with the MCT box and as a daily, its miles better, mainly due to the gearbox and the torque curve which makes punting it about at everyday revs and speeds hilarious (at the expense of not being able to rev it to 8500 rpm once in a while).
All just my 2c, but I'd think long and hard about the M5.
Just a thought, but if you've the budget, I suspect a newer 550i with the zf 8spd would be an excellent option (if you can find one).
Yep totally agree with this, had one for only 4 months and was a bad experience from start to finish sadly. I wanted one for soooo long having previously onwed E34 and E39 M5s but the E60 just doesnt make that much sense in real life. They sound horrible 80% of the time, there was a constant fear of the error bong noise going off EVERY time I drove it, fuel tank is tiny (mine actually ruptured too all over a garage forecourt - one of many times it let me down in 4 months) and unless your driving it like you stole it they arent shockingly fast which you wont want to do that often because it will break I'm assuming your use of hand controls is driven by inability to use your legs (for whatever reason).
To that end, I imagine that driving like a manual (ie with slight throttle lifts between changes) is going to be less straight forward (and possibly ultimately a pain in the backside).
I ran an E61 M5 for a bit over a year and (warranty work aside - £6.5k in a year for throttle actuators, Traction control unit, tailgait wiring etc) I didn't enjoy the experience. Oddly, I quite enjoyed the gearbox as it gave a very mechanical feel, but in auto mode it wasn't great. Its very clunky and spoils things a bit. I'd imagine that trying to manage the gearbox and throttle by hand around town would become tiresome.
I had 2 bigger issues with the car however.
First was the engine, which I found poorly suited to the car. Its a cracker of a lump, but it really needs to be revved to make it go, and the majority of my time was spent with the kids in the car at sub 5k rpm, where the engine felt like it wasn't in its element. This was in contrast to my B10 V8 Alpina which had gobs of torque and was, in almost every way, a better daily car. Don't get me wrong, when you're really ragging the daylights out of it, the M5 comes alive, but as most of my driving wasn't at 10/10s, for the most part it felt muted (aka dull).
The second part wasn't fuel economy (which was utterly woeful) but the stupidly small tank. We took the car away on holiday once and I literally had to fill up every 2-3 days, which became something of a standing joke.
Glad I had one, also glad I sold it. High revving V10 aside, its a flawed car.
In contrast, I subsequently tried an E63 6.2 with the MCT box and as a daily, its miles better, mainly due to the gearbox and the torque curve which makes punting it about at everyday revs and speeds hilarious (at the expense of not being able to rev it to 8500 rpm once in a while).
All just my 2c, but I'd think long and hard about the M5.
Just a thought, but if you've the budget, I suspect a newer 550i with the zf 8spd would be an excellent option (if you can find one).
If your only going to use it in full auto mode it will not be a pleasant experience, I quite liked the SMG on the paddles but obviously mine broke twice and needed a clutch and flywheel, a common issue with these which I believe is made worse when only used in auto mode but may be wrong.
However every now and then when its a full moon and all the stars align its the most wonderful, screaming, howling, lunatic of a car unlike virtually anything else ive owned. And then it will break again, and destroy your soul.
Well, you've all sucessfully pissed on my chips 
I kid, I kid, thank you all for your input! Lucky for me, the fact they're so rare means that I can't really rush out, ignore all your advice and buy one anyway. Which I probably would have done.
There is a particular kind of hand control setup that would allow me to use the paddles and always have it in manual mode, but I haven't ever tried them. I think that a good way of experiencing this engine would be to get a saloon version for 6 months when I have a drivway to store it on. Maybe even turn it into a track car, who knows.
The hunt is now on for a 2010 W212 E63 AMG, I like the face better than the W211 but I still want that sweet sweet M156. Or maybe an C6 RS6. Or that generation S6 if I feel cheap. Or an XF-R Sportbrake if I can find one. The B5 Touring would be the holy grail, but if I'm willing to spend that much I probably have to start considering the C7 RS6 and the W213 C63.
I really hope it's not me that lives in a perpetual state of 'I want that one! Wait.... Maybe that one? Or even the other one?!?!'
Thanks again
I kid, I kid, thank you all for your input! Lucky for me, the fact they're so rare means that I can't really rush out, ignore all your advice and buy one anyway. Which I probably would have done.
There is a particular kind of hand control setup that would allow me to use the paddles and always have it in manual mode, but I haven't ever tried them. I think that a good way of experiencing this engine would be to get a saloon version for 6 months when I have a drivway to store it on. Maybe even turn it into a track car, who knows.
The hunt is now on for a 2010 W212 E63 AMG, I like the face better than the W211 but I still want that sweet sweet M156. Or maybe an C6 RS6. Or that generation S6 if I feel cheap. Or an XF-R Sportbrake if I can find one. The B5 Touring would be the holy grail, but if I'm willing to spend that much I probably have to start considering the C7 RS6 and the W213 C63.
I really hope it's not me that lives in a perpetual state of 'I want that one! Wait.... Maybe that one? Or even the other one?!?!'
Thanks again
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