Sea-Dweller playing up
Discussion
As titled. I have just started wearing it again and have noticed a funny noise when I tilt my wrist 180-270 degrees. It soundeded a bit like one of those kids toys where you slide a bobbin inside a tube and it makes a noise each time you turn it upside down.. Not sure what it was called. Anyway something seems to be slightly loose inside.
It has now twice lost time. This morning it lost a full hour. Perhaps because it is not self winding properly.
Any pointers appreciated.
I will be popping down the road to the West Malling Rolex service centre once I get home anyway but it is always interesting to hear if it is a 'common' problem. I have had it serviced once if not twice in the thirteen years of ownership but have other watches to wear so wear and tear should be minimal.
Pip
It has now twice lost time. This morning it lost a full hour. Perhaps because it is not self winding properly.
Any pointers appreciated.
I will be popping down the road to the West Malling Rolex service centre once I get home anyway but it is always interesting to hear if it is a 'common' problem. I have had it serviced once if not twice in the thirteen years of ownership but have other watches to wear so wear and tear should be minimal.
Pip
As you've already guessed, hearing something move loudly around inside your watch is probably not good news.
It IS common in a lot of watches to hear the auto-winding 360 degree rotor moving around, but because Rolex use a quieter, more efficient winding system (post/bushing vs. ball bearings in most other watches), the rotor noise in a Rolex is usually pretty minimal & harder to hear.
Also, the sheer thickness of the Sea-Dweller case should dampen most noise.
Given the above, my money would be on the possibility that your rotor is out of sync, and that noise you hear is the metal rotor contacting the movement plates or case back.
Rolex movements are usually pretty robust, and can run for years without servicing, so whilst the rotor post/bushing is a known weak point that can wear (and allow the rotor to ‘droop’), if you have conscientiously serviced it twice in 13 years, you shouldn’t really be at that point yet, especially with a watch worn only in rotation – the service should have noted & replaced any problem parts prior to that stage (unless they did, but then failed to oil the bushing correctly – that is pretty vital with that system).
The rotor is weighted at the extremities, and the post is quite thin, so a heavy knock or shock from dropping can result in enough displacement to cause issues – has it taken any rough action recently?
That increased rotor friction might explain sub-par automatic-winding, and it’s true that a poorly-wound watch can keep bad time, but more info is needed on how the watch lost that hour – did it just gradually fall behind, over say, 24 hours, or did you just pick it up after it had maybe stopped completely (due to the weakened power reserve), and it then ‘kicked back into life’ with a little movement of the rotor, but an hour behind?
I recommend that you by-pass the probable rotor issue by testing the power reserve of the mainspring & the accuracy of the watch’s timing by hand-winding it from ‘dead’ by turning the crown 40-50 times – that should fully wind the mainspring. Then set the time to the exact second (using an online atomic clock) and leave the watch unworn in a drawer or something. Check it again in 24 hours against the same atomic time source to see if the watch has kept poor time - it should be within a few seconds - and then again a few times until it reaches 48 hours as well. A fully-functioning mainspring should allow the watch to run for 48-50 hours after that first & only hand-winding.
If the watch lasts a couple of days ok and keeps accurate time, then you’ll know your problem is a dodgy rotor.
If the watch ‘dies’ before the 48 hour mark, or still keeps awful time over the course of that 48 hours, then you’ll have diagnosed a broken mainspring or a problem with the timing in the hairspring/balance.
A good watch-maker will diagnose all of that quickly by just opening the watch and putting it on their timing machine.
Was the watch serviced by Rolex in the past 24 months, as they give a 2-year service warranty you could maybe rely upon?
It IS common in a lot of watches to hear the auto-winding 360 degree rotor moving around, but because Rolex use a quieter, more efficient winding system (post/bushing vs. ball bearings in most other watches), the rotor noise in a Rolex is usually pretty minimal & harder to hear.
Also, the sheer thickness of the Sea-Dweller case should dampen most noise.
Given the above, my money would be on the possibility that your rotor is out of sync, and that noise you hear is the metal rotor contacting the movement plates or case back.
Rolex movements are usually pretty robust, and can run for years without servicing, so whilst the rotor post/bushing is a known weak point that can wear (and allow the rotor to ‘droop’), if you have conscientiously serviced it twice in 13 years, you shouldn’t really be at that point yet, especially with a watch worn only in rotation – the service should have noted & replaced any problem parts prior to that stage (unless they did, but then failed to oil the bushing correctly – that is pretty vital with that system).
The rotor is weighted at the extremities, and the post is quite thin, so a heavy knock or shock from dropping can result in enough displacement to cause issues – has it taken any rough action recently?
That increased rotor friction might explain sub-par automatic-winding, and it’s true that a poorly-wound watch can keep bad time, but more info is needed on how the watch lost that hour – did it just gradually fall behind, over say, 24 hours, or did you just pick it up after it had maybe stopped completely (due to the weakened power reserve), and it then ‘kicked back into life’ with a little movement of the rotor, but an hour behind?
I recommend that you by-pass the probable rotor issue by testing the power reserve of the mainspring & the accuracy of the watch’s timing by hand-winding it from ‘dead’ by turning the crown 40-50 times – that should fully wind the mainspring. Then set the time to the exact second (using an online atomic clock) and leave the watch unworn in a drawer or something. Check it again in 24 hours against the same atomic time source to see if the watch has kept poor time - it should be within a few seconds - and then again a few times until it reaches 48 hours as well. A fully-functioning mainspring should allow the watch to run for 48-50 hours after that first & only hand-winding.
If the watch lasts a couple of days ok and keeps accurate time, then you’ll know your problem is a dodgy rotor.
If the watch ‘dies’ before the 48 hour mark, or still keeps awful time over the course of that 48 hours, then you’ll have diagnosed a broken mainspring or a problem with the timing in the hairspring/balance.
A good watch-maker will diagnose all of that quickly by just opening the watch and putting it on their timing machine.
Was the watch serviced by Rolex in the past 24 months, as they give a 2-year service warranty you could maybe rely upon?
The above advice all sounds good to me, if however you have to have the watch checked out by a watchmaker bear in mind that they will need to be able to pressure test it afterwards (many cant do this with depth ratings like on the SeaDweller) and unless they are acredited with Rolex will struggle to get hold of spare parts.
UnclePat said:
...by turning the crown 40-50 times – that should fully wind the mainspring.
Out of interest, does that mean 40-50 complete 360 degree revolutions, or 40-50 movements of thumb/forefinger each of which might only be half a revolution?My Rolex dealer told me 60 "winds" would do it, but I'm still unsure what she meant?
Very informative Uncle Pat. Thank you. As it is I get home tomorrow so will likely just pop down to Rolex and ask them to sort it out. For the other poster West Malling is a Rolex service centre (previously Bexley Heath) so parts and pressure testing should not be a problem. I will have to look up the last service date although I believe it was not too long ago (fingers crossed).
I will try and remember to put up the outcome.
I was told by a Rolex outlet (Mappin & Webb) that you cannot overwind Rolex which I was surprized to hear.
Pip
I will try and remember to put up the outcome.
I was told by a Rolex outlet (Mappin & Webb) that you cannot overwind Rolex which I was surprized to hear.
Pip
Edited by Pip1968 on Wednesday 19th April 23:22
DJMC said:
Out of interest, does that mean 40-50 complete 360 degree revolutions, or 40-50 movements of thumb/forefinger each of which might only be half a revolution?
My Rolex dealer told me 60 "winds" would do it, but I'm still unsure what she meant?
It depends on your winding style, really, as some get more rotation on each wind, whereas others just 'rock' the crown back & forth a smaller distance without ever releasing it in between each motion.My Rolex dealer told me 60 "winds" would do it, but I'm still unsure what she meant?
Both those figures above refer to just the thumb/forefinger or half-rotation though, and both should get you to full wind or very near.
When I got my (manual winding only) Speedmaster, I kept reading people saying about 40 turns would do it, but it suprisingly takes me nearer 80 from 'dead' to fully-wound (where it won't let me go any further).
With an automatic though, you can't generally hand-wind to a full stop - it'll just allow you to keep going - so you can't do any harm if you go a bit past the fully-wound stage.
Pip1968 said:
I was told by a Rolex outlet (Mappin & Webb) that you cannot overwind Rolex which I was surprized to hear.
No problem, hope you get sorted without much hassle.Yes, that's correct - you can't 'overwind' any automatic Rolex (which is all of the modern releases).
To expand on my post above, all automatics differ from manual-only in that a manual-only winding watch will reach a point where the mainspring is as tight as it can be wound, so the crown will not physically allow you to wind further - if you did (and you'd need to be exerting some quite unwise & very noticeable levels of force), then in theory you could 'overwind' and thereby physically break something inside the watch, but that would be quite hard to do, going beyond what is comfortable.
There are exceptions to this, where you might be at greater risk of breaking something - but mainly in older or poor quality movements. Something vintage, for example, I'd be careful not to hand-wind to extreme.
Automatics are different - because the rotor never stops rotating, in theory it could try and wind beyond the fully-wound stage, so to prevent that, the mainspring inside an automatic has a 'slipping bridle'/clutch that uncouples, so that once maximum wind is achieved - via either hand or automatic rotor, or both - any further winding just causes the end of the spring to slip inside the barrel, without winding it any tighter.
That's why you can hand wind an automatic for as long as you wish and it will never allow you to reach that stopping point.
However, on a lot of automatics, they are designed more for daily auto-winding, so whilst an occasional hand-wind is absolutely fine, the weaker hand-wind system can suffer from daily hand-winding (but you shouldn't ever need to hand-wind daily anyway, as the rotor does it all for you).
With a movement of Rolex quality, I would have zero fears with daily hand-winding though. It's on something like the very common ETA 2824-2 that very regular hand-winding has led to greater wear & tear.
Well I popped the Sea Dweller into Rolex and they emailed me an estimate a day or so later. They also corrected me on its last service date - 8 years ago apparently. My visit two years ago was for another watch. Ho hum.
Anyway they do not really seem to differentiate between items that need fixing and a service so I have been quoted for a service. They also wanted to replace the strap and glass with crown/bezel. The glass has a miniscule chip and the bezel has been bashed. I wear it all the time when gardening, tinkering with the car and obviously in the shower and bed and quite like the lived in look of it but have been talked into replacing the glass and crown.
So anyway 396 for a service, 81 for glass and 43 for the crown/bezel with vat on top.
The watch did actually stop for a second time after my post so clearly is not automatically winding.
Pip
Anyway they do not really seem to differentiate between items that need fixing and a service so I have been quoted for a service. They also wanted to replace the strap and glass with crown/bezel. The glass has a miniscule chip and the bezel has been bashed. I wear it all the time when gardening, tinkering with the car and obviously in the shower and bed and quite like the lived in look of it but have been talked into replacing the glass and crown.
So anyway 396 for a service, 81 for glass and 43 for the crown/bezel with vat on top.
The watch did actually stop for a second time after my post so clearly is not automatically winding.
Pip
Pip1968 said:
They also wanted to replace the strap and glass with crown/bezel. The glass has a miniscule chip and the bezel has been bashed. I wear it all the time when gardening, tinkering with the car and obviously in the shower and bed and quite like the lived in look of it but have been talked into replacing the glass and crown.
Rolex are notoriously overly-cautious & very proscriptive with their service replacement recommendations.Partly, it's a sensible desire to make sure their good service work isn't undone by a dodgy bracelet coming loose, or a crystal weakness.
However, I think a lot of it is a desire to protect the Rolex image by ensuring their watches look as shiny & fresh as possible.
The crown is a normal change.
The bracelet/strap is almost certainly fine, and the replacement cost is exorbitant. Unless it's really dodgy or stretching, I'd leave as is.
The Sea Dweller crystal is prone to chipping because it's raised above the bezel, but a simple, singe, small chip won't remotely affect water resistance and need changing, but Rolex no doubt put the pressure on.
The bezel insert is a non performance-critical part, so if you like that hard-earned patina & pattern of wearing, then I'd dig your heels in to keep it. It's cheap to replace & will look nice & new of course, but some people like to keep the character of their watch.
Rolex are well-renowned for the polishing they do at service time, so it's true that if you replace the crystal & bezel insert as well, you'll get a good-as-new looking watch back from them.
Yes, thank you again Uncle Pat. The advisor was a little pushy when I initially just said the glass. I did not mind the dinks in the crown. I did therefore succumb to replacement of the crown but was not moving on the strap. The watch is just over 13 years old now and as said it is not my sole watch so has not been on my wrist the whole time. He was quick to point out it he could NOTnguarantee the strap's integrity and implied it could end up on the floor but my days of a heavy bergan strap catching it are over.
Anyone who is looking at the DiY route might want to see this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PdyN2doV7A
Not for the feint hearted. Ha ha ha.
Pip
Anyone who is looking at the DiY route might want to see this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PdyN2doV7A
Not for the feint hearted. Ha ha ha.
Pip
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