Premium / Heritage branding

[BobSaunders]

Dear all,

I am making my first forray into more premium branding of watches for general day to day wearing (office and meetings, and bar and restaurant usage) etc.

I've had my eye on a Tag Heuer Carrera Calibre 16mm DD CV2A1R.BA0799 for some time, but upon discussion with a close friend over the weekend, he does not see Tag as a heritage branded watch compared to Breitling, Rolex, Omega etc.

His opinion, which is held highly by me, has made me seek further advice before purchasing.

What is your advice? save up some more for a Breitling Navitimer for instance?

Thanks, Matt

[sandman77]

BobSaunders said:

Dear all,

I am making my first forray into more premium branding of watches for general day to day wearing (office and meetings, and bar and restaurant usage) etc.

I've had my eye on a Tag Heuer Carrera Calibre 16mm DD CV2A1R.BA0799 for some time, but upon discussion with a close friend over the weekend, he does not see Tag as a heritage branded watch compared to Breitling, Rolex, Omega etc.

His opinion, which is held highly by me, has made me seek further advice before purchasing.

What is your advice? save up some more for a Breitling Navitimer for instance?

Thanks, Matt

There is a LOT of brand snobbery when it comes to watch brands and Tag Heuer seems to one of those brands that divides opinion (probably down to some of the watches they produced in the 90's which were a bit crap). For whats its worth I have a new Aquaracer and it is every bit as good quality as my Omega Speedmaster.

It should also be noted that Tag Heuer are generally quite a bit cheaper (less expensive) than any of the other brands you mentioned. Brand new Tag Heuer mens watches can be had for under £1000. Try finding a Breitling, Rolex or Omega for that price.

[Dempsey1971]

sandman77 said:

BobSaunders said:

Dear all,

I am making my first forray into more premium branding of watches for general day to day wearing (office and meetings, and bar and restaurant usage) etc.

I've had my eye on a Tag Heuer Carrera Calibre 16mm DD CV2A1R.BA0799 for some time, but upon discussion with a close friend over the weekend, he does not see Tag as a heritage branded watch compared to Breitling, Rolex, Omega etc.

His opinion, which is held highly by me, has made me seek further advice before purchasing.

What is your advice? save up some more for a Breitling Navitimer for instance?

Thanks, Matt

There is a LOT of brand snobbery when it comes to watch brands and Tag Heuer seems to one of those brands that divides opinion (probably down to some of the watches they produced in the 90's which were a bit crap). For whats its worth I have a new Aquaracer and it is every bit as good quality as my Omega Speedmaster.

It should also be noted that Tag Heuer are generally quite a bit cheaper (less expensive) than any of the other brands you mentioned. Brand new Tag Heuer mens watches can be had for under £1000. Try finding a Breitling, Rolex or Omega for that price.

I'd agree with this. Tag Heuer seems to elicit negative comments, mostly because TAG was not a watch brand whan it took over Heuer and people didnt like the rename. They have some dodgy watches in the past, using what were considered off the shelf ETA movements, but a lot of manufacturers did that in the 90's / early noughties.

They do some lovely watches, nice design, good build quality, in house movements, and if you can get passed the regurgitated pap on forums from people who haven't actually handled a modern Tag, you see they are there with others you mentioned.

Most importantly, buy a watch YOU love, not one you think you ought to love because it has 'heritage'

Some of the most prestigious / horologically imoprtant watches ever made would never grace my wrist, because I couldn't bare to look at them all day (Zenith El Primeros anyone?).

PS - I am wearing the watch you are looking at as I type this, and it's a lovely thing. It gets way more wrist time than my boring Submariner.

[Paul Drawmer]

Don't forget that the satisfaction of wearing a particular watch is self satisfaction. 99% of the people you meet and do business with won't notice what's on your wrist. Just buy something that you like. Something that you find yourself staring at at odd times of the day.

[sandman77]

Oh - as for heritage, The company (heuer) have been making watches for longer than the other three brands you mention.

[So]

BobSaunders said:

Dear all,

I am making my first forray into more premium branding of watches for general day to day wearing (office and meetings, and bar and restaurant usage) etc.

I've had my eye on a Tag Heuer Carrera Calibre 16mm DD CV2A1R.BA0799 for some time, but upon discussion with a close friend over the weekend, he does not see Tag as a heritage branded watch compared to Breitling, Rolex, Omega etc.

His opinion, which is held highly by me, has made me seek further advice before purchasing.

What is your advice? save up some more for a Breitling Navitimer for instance?

Thanks, Matt

I would choose a Tag over a BrightBling any day, but a Rolex or Omega above either.

[BRR]

the recent Heuer branded Autavia and Monza in my opinion are stunning watches, also really like the Monaco. It's a strange thing as I'd say don't worry about the premiumness (doubt that's a word) of the brand but if that were the case I guess everybody would wear a seiko

[WelshChris]

Dempsey1971 said:

Some of the most prestigious / horologically imoprtant watches ever made would never grace my wrist, because I couldn't bare to look at them all day (Zenith El Primeros anyone?).

Surely some mistake? - If you get one of these in your Christmas Cracker you can always send it to me - some of the El Primero variants are gorgeous.

[h0b0]

WelshChris said:

Dempsey1971 said:

Some of the most prestigious / horologically imoprtant watches ever made would never grace my wrist, because I couldn't bare to look at them all day (Zenith El Primeros anyone?).

Surely some mistake? - If you get one of these in your Christmas Cracker you can always send it to me - some of the El Primero variants are gorgeous.

Here is where the 2 worlds collide

A Tag with the El Primero movement.

OP. there is an awful lot of BS in the watch world very much like the car world. Tag Heuer would be the VW of the watch world. They have made a crap load of watches and had some questionable periods but most people see them as a premium brand. The movements are the engines of the watch. The El Primero was designed by Zenith but can be found in many brands of watches through out the spectrum of cost. This is because LVMH (Louis Vuitton) own...

Bulgari (Bently)
Chaumet
FRED
Hublot (Lamborghini)
TAG Heuer (Audi)
Zenith (Porsche)

I have given a couple of ideas how their products align with Cars. I am sure people would disagree.

If you think that is a bit inbred, you should see Omega. The swatch group own the following....

Blancpain
Breguet
Harry Winston
Glashütte Original
Omega
Jaquet Droz
Léon Hatot
High Range
Rado
Longines
Union Glashütte
Middle Range
Hamilton
Certina
Mido
Tissot
Balmain
Ck Calvin Klein
Entry Range
Swatch
Flik Flak
Private label
Endura

That's right, the Swatch group. They also own ETA which made a large proportion of automatic movements in all watches along with Seiko. Using the car analogy that would be a PSA 1.6 diesel being used in everything from Ford Kas to hindustan ambassadors. A few years ago Swatch realized they could screw with their competition by throttling back the supply of ETA movements to their competitors. As a result, brands like Tag had to start building their own. Tag bought the rights to the Seiko movement and reconfigured it in to their 1887 movement. This is their in house movement. If you buy the "traditional" Carrera you will see it with "Day Date" (i.e. it has day and date). This was the ETA version. the larger version will say 1887 and only have day on the dial.

So, now you have more info than you need and I have left a whole bunch out which people will be sure to identify as gaps.

But what matters? For me engineering quality does. I have the watch above and treasure it because I think the movement is incredible. I do not wear it daily though because I have an IWC. Most brand (s)nobs would think that is the wrong way around. But, the movement matters to me and the IWC has the ETA I spoke of before so, in my eyes is not as special as the TAG.

My next step is to sell the IWC and buy an Omega with the 8500 movement.

Edited by h0b0 on Friday 17th November 21:01

[BlackFlag]

So said:

BobSaunders said:

Dear all,

I am making my first forray into more premium branding of watches for general day to day wearing (office and meetings, and bar and restaurant usage) etc.

I've had my eye on a Tag Heuer Carrera Calibre 16mm DD CV2A1R.BA0799 for some time, but upon discussion with a close friend over the weekend, he does not see Tag as a heritage branded watch compared to Breitling, Rolex, Omega etc.

His opinion, which is held highly by me, has made me seek further advice before purchasing.

What is your advice? save up some more for a Breitling Navitimer for instance?

Thanks, Matt

I would choose a Tag over a BrightBling any day, but a Rolex or Omega above either.

Not me. Breitling are the epitome of a Swiss watchmaker. Strong history, highly reworked movements and in-house movements, swiss chronometer certification across the range, and top-tier finishing. The bracelets alone are works of art in the metal.

Tag are not in the same class as any of the three brands mentioned. IIRC, there was a big uproar about their "in-house" 1887 movement being more or less a reworked Seiko movement, which the CEO was shamed into addressing.

[So]

BlackFlag said:

So said:

BobSaunders said:

Dear all,

I am making my first forray into more premium branding of watches for general day to day wearing (office and meetings, and bar and restaurant usage) etc.

I've had my eye on a Tag Heuer Carrera Calibre 16mm DD CV2A1R.BA0799 for some time, but upon discussion with a close friend over the weekend, he does not see Tag as a heritage branded watch compared to Breitling, Rolex, Omega etc.

His opinion, which is held highly by me, has made me seek further advice before purchasing.

What is your advice? save up some more for a Breitling Navitimer for instance?

Thanks, Matt

I would choose a Tag over a BrightBling any day, but a Rolex or Omega above either.

Not me. Breitling are the epitome of a Swiss watchmaker. Strong history, highly reworked movements and in-house movements, swiss chronometer certification across the range, and top-tier finishing. The bracelets alone are works of art in the metal.

Tag are not in the same class as any of the three brands mentioned. IIRC, there was a big uproar about their "in-house" 1887 movement being more or less a reworked Seiko movement, which the CEO was shamed into addressing.

We'll have to agree to differ.

Until very recently Breitling was only using bought-in movements. Cases are a matter of personal taste, or lack thereof perhaps.

As for having a chronometer certificate, that's not actually particularly impressive. It's not that hard to achieve chronometer accuracy and it gives the manufacturer the opportunity to hide behind a certificate if a watch isn't performing as the owner would like. "It may be 4 seconds slow per day, Mr Customer, but it's within COSC so we won't be doing anything".

Of course TAG watches aren't the last word in horology, but their shortcomings are no worse than those of Breitling. Furthermore the price tag is lower and the designs rather nicer in my view.

My position is that I own neither, outside of an elderly TAG SEL which I bought in 1992 and which I've not worn for years.

[BlackFlag]

So said:

We'll have to agree to differ.

Until very recently Breitling was only using bought-in movements. Cases are a matter of personal taste, or lack thereof perhaps.

As for having a chronometer certificate, that's not actually particularly impressive. It's not that hard to achieve chronometer accuracy and it gives the manufacturer the opportunity to hide behind a certificate if a watch isn't performing as the owner would like. "It may be 4 seconds slow per day, Mr Customer, but it's within COSC so we won't be doing anything".

Of course TAG watches aren't the last word in horology, but their shortcomings are no worse than those of Breitling. Furthermore the price tag is lower and the designs rather nicer in my view.

My position is that I own neither, outside of an elderly TAG SEL which I bought in 1992 and which I've not worn for years.

The movements that are "bought in" are ebauches that are heavily reworked, which is and has been std. practice in the Swiss industry since its inception. Breitlings in-house chrono is one of the best, if not the best on the market.

Case/bracelet quality and workmanship is not a matter of personal taste; perhaps you meant the styling.

A chronometer certificate for a mass produced watch is not a simple matter just because you say it is. But I am happy to listen to a reasonable argument supported by facts.

[So]

BlackFlag said:

So said:

We'll have to agree to differ.

Until very recently Breitling was only using bought-in movements. Cases are a matter of personal taste, or lack thereof perhaps.

As for having a chronometer certificate, that's not actually particularly impressive. It's not that hard to achieve chronometer accuracy and it gives the manufacturer the opportunity to hide behind a certificate if a watch isn't performing as the owner would like. "It may be 4 seconds slow per day, Mr Customer, but it's within COSC so we won't be doing anything".

Of course TAG watches aren't the last word in horology, but their shortcomings are no worse than those of Breitling. Furthermore the price tag is lower and the designs rather nicer in my view.

My position is that I own neither, outside of an elderly TAG SEL which I bought in 1992 and which I've not worn for years.

The movements that are "bought in" are ebauches that are heavily reworked, which is and has been std. practice in the Swiss industry since its inception. Breitlings in-house chrono is one of the best, if not the best on the market.

Case/bracelet quality and workmanship is not a matter of personal taste; perhaps you meant the styling.

A chronometer certificate for a mass produced watch is not a simple matter just because you say it is. But I am happy to listen to a reasonable argument supported by facts.

Bought in movements has never been "standard practice" for the Swiss watch industry. A lot of the lesser brands have done it, but that doesn't make it "standard practice". The only reason many are going in-house is because the supply of ETA movements is to all intents and purposes ending.

As I said, until recently Breitling bought in movements for all its watches. I really cannot muster a lot of enthusiasm for a maker that has done that.

Making a range of mass-produced watches COSC certified, in this day and age, isn't that hard because components are quite consistent. If you think it is difficult please elaborate. Also remember that COSC certification isn't actually that challenging a set of criteria.

[Guycord]

My two cents.

Movements are double edge swords. On one hand, Off-the shelf mechs were common workhorses with little variation. Mechs (ebauches if you like) had varying finishes depending on who was using them. Pros were every watchmaker could service them. Cons were that 5here was very little mech development and innovation.

Conversely, the forcing of watch manufacturers to build their own mechs has seen an explosion in innovation but at the cost of a) monopolies or duopolies of the ebauch market, b) a massive reduction in those capable of repairing and servicing a watch and c) a massive increase in in-house servicing cost and turnaround time.

My long term view is that the balance has swung too far to the other side. As this is primarily a motoring forum, imagine if block exemption was not law with our cars. Corollary is that we will soon be seeing thousands of relatively exotic watches (let’s say Breitling-Omega quality upwards) on the market that would never have seen service because of cost and time to service by the in-house manufacturers.

[BlackFlag]

Guycord said:

My two cents.

Movements are double edge swords. On one hand, Off-the shelf mechs were common workhorses with little variation. Mechs (ebauches if you like) had varying finishes depending on who was using them. Pros were every watchmaker could service them. Cons were that 5here was very little mech development and innovation.

Conversely, the forcing of watch manufacturers to build their own mechs has seen an explosion in innovation but at the cost of a) monopolies or duopolies of the ebauch market, b) a massive reduction in those capable of repairing and servicing a watch and c) a massive increase in in-house servicing cost and turnaround time.

My long term view is that the balance has swung too far to the other side. As this is primarily a motoring forum, imagine if block exemption was not law with our cars. Corollary is that we will soon be seeing thousands of relatively exotic watches (let’s say Breitling-Omega quality upwards) on the market that would never have seen service because of cost and time to service by the in-house manufacturers.

Historically speaking in-house movements have always been somewhat of a rarity, suppliers like Lemania, Valjoux and others provided ebauches for many many brands, from Rolex to Omega to Breitling to Patek.

The demand for them now is largely marketing based and fallout from the ETA debacle. Some insightful comments from Jean Claude Biver here:

http://timeandtidewatches.com/video-why-should-you...

[mikeveal]

So said:

As I said, until recently Breitling bought in movements for all its watches. I really cannot muster a lot of enthusiasm for a maker that has done that.

So this:

enthuses you, whereas this:

doesn't?

OK. Takes all sorts.


Back to the OP's original question about TAG, it has been covered many times here before, I'll go into a little more detail.

Heuer were once an undeniably great brand. Formed in the 1860's they made solid attractive quality timepieces. They had solid links with motorsport which I think stemmed from dashboard chronos.
.
By the 1980's they were in trouble, victims of the quartz revolution. TAG stepped in and changed the way things were done. The general perception is that there was a lot of branding over substance, with some very cheap movements lurking inside the time pieces. In the eyes of collectors, a lot of damage was done to the brands reputation.

The group came under the LVMH banner in 1999. I believe movements went upmarket a bit, but I don't believe quality was comparable to other watches in the same price bracket. They weren't shonky, but neither were they a very informed choice. If TAG made something you liked and nothing else tickled your fancy, then fine, get the TAG. But if it was a toss up between a TAG and something else, you'd be mad not to get the something else. Of course this is highly subjective, but if you poke about on watch forums you'll find that this is a fairly widely held opinion.

In 2014, Jean Claude Biver took over as CEO. From all accounts Biver seems to be a bit of a character, something of a force of nature.
It appears that he wants to do a few things.

He's repositioning TAG as "affordable luxury". Where the prices had climbed he appears to want to lower them. He does not want to compete with the high end luxury brands, but he does want to be seen to offer good value at his price point.

He wants to improve the quality of the product and to innovate. He bought his factory rather than renting it. TAG have upped their quality to the point that they sell dials to other brands, although they refuse to name the brands.

His marketing strategies of zero separation and a 60/40 sepnding split are interesting. I'll let you google zero separation. The 60/40 idea is that 60% of advertising revenue goes on those who have the means to buy his product. 40% is spent on appealing to the next generation, I guess by definition, young people who have yet to realise their earning potential. TAG have always spent a very high proportion of their budget on marketing (one of the reasons the collectors grumble). Biver has a policy of flying his people around the globe first class and having them turn up at customers sites in flashy cars because he believes it impacts on brand perception.

So that is, in my opinion, why TAG is derided. I think a lot of it is fair, but I'm not convinced that everyone doing the slagging off really knows what they're talking about. I also think that Biver is putting the company back on track, he appears to be addressing the right issues. I think that the watches are getting noticeably better (with still a way to go), but I also think that it will take a long time to shake off the reputation the brand has accumulated over the last 30 years.

None of this is even on the radar of the general public, who seem to regard the brand as aspirational. It's all just watchies and collectors grumbling about change.

Edited by mikeveal on Tuesday 21st November 10:11

[BlackFlag]

mikeveal said:

BlackFlag said:

As I said, until recently Breitling bought in movements for all its watches. I really cannot muster a lot of enthusiasm for a maker that has done that.

So this:

enthuses you, whereas this:

doesn't?

OK. Takes all sorts.

Fix attribution please. I didn't write that nonsense.

[mikeveal]

I fixed it 1 minute before you replied. Thought I got in there fast enough, clearly I didn't. It was a error on my part trimming a multi-quote reply. Sorry about that.

[So]

BlackFlag said:

mikeveal said:

BlackFlag said:

As I said, until recently Breitling bought in movements for all its watches. I really cannot muster a lot of enthusiasm for a maker that has done that.

So this:

enthuses you, whereas this:

doesn't?

OK. Takes all sorts.

Fix attribution please. I didn't write that nonsense.

Honestly yes, I would choose a Swatch. Perhaps not that one but pound for pound give me a Swatch over a Breitling.

Blackflag you seemed to suggest earlier that Rolex and Patek have been as guilty of buying in inexpensive movements as Breitling. Can you expand upon that?

[h0b0]

The Daytona used to have the same El Primero movement that is in the Tag I posted a picture of before. It’s one of the reasons I posted the watch as I saw the irony in people saying you shouldn’t buy Tags because they buy movements in.

Originally a Zenith product that has been used by several manufactures. Zenith are now part of the same family as Tag.