Premium / Heritage branding

[mikeveal]

So said:

Honestly yes, I would choose a Swatch. Perhaps not that one but pound for pound give me a Swatch over a Breitling.

Each to their own.
I'm more interested in the quality of the watch than the origin of the parts. An ETA 2892 or 2842 in Elaborated, Top or Chronometer grade is a great movement, no matter whose name is on the case enclosing it. Whereas the quartz movement in that Swatch is cheap crud . Actually it's a stunning feat of engineering to manufacture a high reliability, high volume, low cost product like that, but that doesn't make it a quality item!

I also have to like the watch. The Superocean is the only think in the current Breitling range that I don't find distasteful, but that's a different subject!

[BlackFlag]

So said:

BlackFlag said:

mikeveal said:

BlackFlag said:

As I said, until recently Breitling bought in movements for all its watches. I really cannot muster a lot of enthusiasm for a maker that has done that.

So this:

enthuses you, whereas this:

doesn't?

OK. Takes all sorts.

Fix attribution please. I didn't write that nonsense.

Honestly yes, I would choose a Swatch. Perhaps not that one but pound for pound give me a Swatch over a Breitling.

Blackflag you seemed to suggest earlier that Rolex and Patek have been as guilty of buying in inexpensive movements as Breitling. Can you expand upon that?

Your incorrect terminology aside (it matters), yes they, like Breitling and others, have used ebauches (which are not finished movements) from outside suppliers to create their calibers. Lemania comes to mind for Patek and Zenith for Rolex.

That is the bulk of the history of Swiss watchmaking -- shared movements and collaborative developments.

I'd ask you to back up your own post again, but I suspect that may not be happening.

[So]

BlackFlag said:

Your incorrect terminology aside (it matters), yes they, like Breitling and others, have used ebauches (which are not finished movements) from outside suppliers to create their calibers. Lemania comes to mind for Patek and Zenith for Rolex.

That is the bulk of the history of Swiss watchmaking -- shared movements and collaborative developments.

I'd ask you to back up your own post again, but I suspect that may not be happening.

Okay so in the case of Rolex, you're referring to the El Prim are you? In how much of the range and for how long was it a feature?

What is it you'd like me to back up by the way?

[nikaiyo2]

So said:

Okay so in the case of Rolex, you're referring to the El Prim are you? In how much of the range and for how long was it a feature?

What is it you'd like me to back up by the way?

Well it was in their “halo” model, admittedly in a lower specification than in a zenith or countless other brands, for 15 odd years. Rolex never really made great movements, they make solid workaday movements, in car terms they are Ford Essex not Bizzarrini v12

[BlackFlag]

nikaiyo2 said:

Well it was in their “halo” model, admittedly in a lower specification than in a zenith or countless other brands, for 15 odd years. Rolex never really made great movements, they make solid workaday movements, in car terms they are Ford Essex not Bizzarrini v12

Don't forget that prior to Zenith, a Valjoux ebauche was also used in the Daytona.

[sandman77]

Are the Tag Heuer Calibre 01 and the Calibre 1969 movements complete in-house movement or are they modified versions of other movements?

[So]

BlackFlag said:

nikaiyo2 said:

Well it was in their “halo” model, admittedly in a lower specification than in a zenith or countless other brands, for 15 odd years. Rolex never really made great movements, they make solid workaday movements, in car terms they are Ford Essex not Bizzarrini v12

Don't forget that prior to Zenith, a Valjoux ebauche was also used in the Daytona.

So Rolex bought in ebauches for one model, for a period of time. Not quite the same level as Breitling's use of ETA, then.

[tertius]

sandman77 said:

Are the Tag Heuer Calibre 01 and the Calibre 1969 movements complete in-house movement or are they modified versions of other movements?

Not sure what the calibre 1669 is, but if you meant the Calibre 16, that is a Valjoux 7750; the calibre 01 is a modified calibre 1887, which in turn is based on a Seiko movement.

[BlackFlag]

tertius said:

sandman77 said:

Are the Tag Heuer Calibre 01 and the Calibre 1969 movements complete in-house movement or are they modified versions of other movements?

Not sure what the calibre 1669 is, but if you meant the Calibre 16, that is a Valjoux 7750; the calibre 01 is a modified calibre 1887, which in turn is based on a Seiko movement.

Pretty sure the 1969 is the CH80, which was developed internally at Tag, but previously shelved. They are using it on some of the retro watches, as the Seiko-based movement is not tricompax, but is Valjoux 7750 style.

[glazbagun]

As a heads-up I would point out that no current Tags have the El-Primero movement, sadly.

Also, like much of the industry, Sellita movements are replacing ETA variants thanks to Swatch Group's moronic self interest and, IMO, they aren't as durable.

That said, you by what you like to suit your own values and Tag is producing some nice designs. I'd just be wary of comparing heritage or branding with the product itself, marketing and production are two seperate fields, after all.

RE: in-house movements, this only really became a big deal when Swatch cut the taps and everyone needed to start singing about thier own calibers. The origins of ETA (or ESA) are actually from a time of too many competing movement manufacturers leading to a decline in quality in a race to the bottom.

Banks and government stepped in, companies were merged and Ebauches SA was created to produce quality movements for the whole industry. Fast forward 80 years and Swatch Group (inheritors of ESA, now ETA) decide that they no longer want to make movements for the rest of the industry so make their excuses and then try to stiff everyone else.

90's Tags have been mentioned as "the crap ones" in this thread a few times, but a chronometer ETA 2892 is a perfectly fine movement and were in many of the higher-end 90's Tags.

But everyone was at it to a greater or lesser extent. Tudor would buy ETA calibers and modify them themselves, Cartier used other's calibers and specified finer balance staffs and other modifications, Rolex, as mentioned, used Valjoux and Zenith ebauches.

The Valjoux 72 in the old Rolex Daytona was good enough for just about anyone in the watch world and was legendary before Rolex used it, but the level of finish/balance could change dramatically.

Now Swatch Group wants to push Breguet, they've taken Lemania, with it's brilliant history, and renamed it "Manufacture Breguet" so they can say that their watches are in-house.

The whole industry has been rather incestuous for a century, but it only seems to matter now that (a) brands are chasing Rolex pricing levels and (b) Swatch Group have reduced supplies.

Edited by glazbagun on Thursday 23 November 14:35