Has the Rolex bubble finally burst? Perhaps it has
Discussion
PistonGuy66 said:
Sorry not being sarcastic, but whats your point??
Just your first post kind of implied that this is a really common thing, and that people buy and flip because "So then they start to panick as they now have a watch they probably cant afford to sit on and they sell it to a evil grey market dealer" - I just wondered if this is actually the minority given Rolex do care about AD's doing this etc. okgo said:
PistonGuy66 said:
Sorry not being sarcastic, but whats your point??
Just your first post kind of implied that this is a really common thing, and that people buy and flip because "So then they start to panick as they now have a watch they probably cant afford to sit on and they sell it to a evil grey market dealer" - I just wondered if this is actually the minority given Rolex do care about AD's doing this etc. 
h about grey dealer,but yet if you read some of those on here that are happy they bought a watch for a big profit,then slag of the grey market dealers. I read a thread on here about slagging of grey dealers then a week later they were recommending a grey dealer on here to someone else that gets a lot of free advertising in here by the very people that moan they cant buy the watch they want at rrp. To be honest i have never bought a Rolex over rrp so i dont really care either way. okgo said:
Just your first post kind of implied that this is a really common thing, and that people buy and flip because "So then they start to panick as they now have a watch they probably cant afford to sit on and they sell it to a evil grey market dealer" - I just wondered if this is actually the minority given Rolex do care about AD's doing this etc.
I guess its hard to work our what proportion of buyers are flipping because we don’t know how many watches are sold at AD’s, but when you see grey dealers with literally handfuls of 41mm Submariners the same week they were available to buy at AD’s, then you get the impression that a lot of people are walking out of AD’s and straight to grey dealers to sell.As I posted earlier in the thread, there are YouTube channels by grey dealers where they show you the buying of stock, and mostly it is people calling them to say “I’ve just walked out of the AD with a Daytona and a Yachtmaster, how much do you want to bid me for those and you can have them this afternoon”.
The AD’s don’t appear to be asking regular customers if they have sold their watches or not, nor requesting proof that they still own them. If a customer is a ‘whale’ and just keeps spending loads of money with them, they won’t ask questions they will just keep selling them watches, including all the hot models.
PistonGuy66 said:
But the AD won't ask to see all your purchased watches every time you buy a new one as proof of being a 'non-flipper'. So they have no idea or have no interest ... why would the AD actually care where these watches go? Flipper or collector is no interest to them, they're selling a watch, its chalked on the board as a sale, shop/shop assistance get their commission so they're happy.
[/quot
Sorry thats not true they do know what you have bought,well they do at WOS group as each customer has a code, so if you bought say a Sub then went to a diffrent shop they will know,and they do care as Rolex give them a very hard time over it.
My point is they don't know what you 'still own' and have no way of finding out. You could have a purchase history of 50 watches and sold all 50 for all they know.[/quot
Sorry thats not true they do know what you have bought,well they do at WOS group as each customer has a code, so if you bought say a Sub then went to a diffrent shop they will know,and they do care as Rolex give them a very hard time over it.
JEA1K said:
PistonGuy66 said:
But the AD won't ask to see all your purchased watches every time you buy a new one as proof of being a 'non-flipper'. So they have no idea or have no interest ... why would the AD actually care where these watches go? Flipper or collector is no interest to them, they're selling a watch, its chalked on the board as a sale, shop/shop assistance get their commission so they're happy.
[/quot
Sorry thats not true they do know what you have bought,well they do at WOS group as each customer has a code, so if you bought say a Sub then went to a diffrent shop they will know,and they do care as Rolex give them a very hard time over it.
My point is they don't know what you 'still own' and have no way of finding out. You could have a purchase history of 50 watches and sold all 50 for all they know.[/quot
Sorry thats not true they do know what you have bought,well they do at WOS group as each customer has a code, so if you bought say a Sub then went to a diffrent shop they will know,and they do care as Rolex give them a very hard time over it.
Part of the reason serial numbers are covered up , I know plenty of people who’ve been burnt selling into the grey market.
Fckitdriveon said:
Incorrect ……they have their ways and means…..which I won’t go into.
Part of the reason serial numbers are covered up , I know plenty of people who’ve been burnt selling into the grey market.
Sorry, I don't buy it. There is no way Rolex or their AD's can have a record of 'the majority' of where/who owns watches after the the leave the shop. I'm sure they have records of who was sold what, but there simply isn't a way of tracking these watches. Look at all the watches that grey dealers have or have sold ... these are literally floating around in the free market, never to see an AD again. Part of the reason serial numbers are covered up , I know plenty of people who’ve been burnt selling into the grey market.
A mate of mine has had 4 Daytona's from 3 different shops, one model he had his name down in two different shops for. There's been no discussion about the other shops when he's bought these. He's also purchased 5 or 6 watches from one of the dealers so thats his key shop. They haven't put him 'on stop' for buying watches from elsewhere or selling them. In the grand scheme of things, I'm sure that sort of purchase history is still very small but I would have thought that this way of tracking you suggest would prevent him from buying from anywhere else.
As it happens, he's not a flipper and has only sold a couple of watches ...
JEA1K said:
okgo said:
I find it hard to believe there are that many people buying and flipping straight away. The authorised dealer wouldn't continue to sell to that person if that is what they did, surely.
But the AD won't ask to see all your purchased watches every time you buy a new one as proof of being a 'non-flipper'. So they have no idea or have no interest ... why would the AD actually care where these watches go? Flipper or collector is no interest to them, they're selling a watch, its chalked on the board as a sale, shop/shop assistance get their commission so they're happy. Fckitdriveon said:
Incorrect ……they have their ways and means…..which I won’t go into.
Part of the reason serial numbers are covered up , I know plenty of people who’ve been burnt selling into the grey market.
From what I have seen, grey dealers do try to protect the identity of the customers selling to them, as you say covering serial numbers and suchlike. Part of the reason serial numbers are covered up , I know plenty of people who’ve been burnt selling into the grey market.
But, other than doing something silly like leaving the serial numbers of a brand new watch visible in a grey dealer advert, how else would an AD know that their customer has been flipping watches to grey dealers?
The grey dealers won’t tell the AD’s who sold watches to them, because that would end their supply of watches.
So unless Rolex AD’s insist on seeing proof that a buyer still owns their watches, I can’t see how AD’s can find out what has been sold on and what hasn’t.
Lord Marylebone said:
Fckitdriveon said:
Incorrect ……they have their ways and means…..which I won’t go into.
Part of the reason serial numbers are covered up , I know plenty of people who’ve been burnt selling into the grey market.
From what I have seen, grey dealers do try to protect the identity of the customers selling to them, as you say covering serial numbers and suchlike. Part of the reason serial numbers are covered up , I know plenty of people who’ve been burnt selling into the grey market.
But, other than doing something silly like leaving the serial numbers of a brand new watch visible in a grey dealer advert, how else would an AD know that their customer has been flipping watches to grey dealers?
The grey dealers won’t tell the AD’s who sold watches to them, because that would end their supply of watches.
So unless Rolex AD’s insist on seeing proof that a buyer still owns their watches, I can’t see how AD’s can find out what has been sold on and what hasn’t.
PistonGuy66 said:
In all honesty i dont really think its any of the ADs Business what someone does with there property after they have paid for it? The thing is Rolex moan at the ADs about it,but in Reality i dont think they can stop it.
It’s a difficult one.In an ideal world, it wouldn’t be any of the AD’s business what someone did with their own property, and Rolex shouldn’t care either.
But, the fact that so many people are walking out of AD’s with new watches, and selling them straight to grey dealers, and then going back to the AD to buy some more, is a big slap in the face for ‘normal people’ who just want to buy a single Rolex watch to wear, and find it incredibly difficult to do so.
Mr Average who wants to treat himself to a Sub or GMT for his 40th birthday is really struggling to be ‘allowed’ to buy anything, and Mr Bigspender who goes into the AD every couple of months and spends big, is being allowed to buy pretty much whatever he wants, because he’s a big spender, and probably buys jewellery as well.
This whole circus is tarnishing the brand, and putting some people off trying to buy a Rolex, and I guess this is why Rolex (and their AD’s) are so bothered about what people do with their watches. It is the reason for the whole “We are keeping your warranty card” debacle.
In short, I can totally understand why Rolex and AD’s are bothered about their watches being flipped, because it is really pissing off a lot of people who would like to be customers.
Common sense says that there must be official dealers taking bungs to supply the second hand traders. But it would be highly risky as Rolex and Patek (in particular) could pull the franchise.
I don't mind paying a moderate premium for a hard to get watch - life is too short to wait years or play silly games with sales people.
I don't mind paying a moderate premium for a hard to get watch - life is too short to wait years or play silly games with sales people.
I believe it was Watches of Switzerland (Though I stand to be corrected) who were retaining the warranty cards for 6 months on new Rolex sales to try and stop the buyers going straight out and flipping them to the grey market but they were stopped from doing it by a customer taking legal action over it.
Jamescrs said:
I believe it was Watches of Switzerland (Though I stand to be corrected) who were retaining the warranty cards for 6 months on new Rolex sales to try and stop the buyers going straight out and flipping them to the grey market but they were stopped from doing it by a customer taking legal action over it.
Correct. I wasn't sure why they stopped this but assumed someone had challenged it. Poor bugger is probably blacklisted on the database from ever owning a Rolex. 
I can understand the reasons as to why they decided to start keeping warranty cards, but at the same time it was absolutely wrong of them to do so.
Legally the customer has paid for their warranty card and is fully entitled to it, irrespective of what bit of paper the AD asked them to sign during the sale.
Legally the customer has paid for their warranty card and is fully entitled to it, irrespective of what bit of paper the AD asked them to sign during the sale.
JEA1K said:
Jamescrs said:
I believe it was Watches of Switzerland (Though I stand to be corrected) who were retaining the warranty cards for 6 months on new Rolex sales to try and stop the buyers going straight out and flipping them to the grey market but they were stopped from doing it by a customer taking legal action over it.
Correct. I wasn't sure why they stopped this but assumed someone had challenged it. Poor bugger is probably blacklisted on the database from ever owning a Rolex. The flippers are inflating the price of rolex, surely more people are trying to buy from an AD now due to the extremely high used values of certain models. If the AD's were not so arrogant maybe I would feel pitty for them but I don't, Rolex are onto a win win I am sure they would not like WOS holding onto warranty cards. All the time we are taling about them their brand is increasing in value, all the time Rolex's sell for over list on the 2nd hand market Rolex brand is increasing in value.
I am against buying products with the sole purpose of 'flipping' them however some people don't care and some are more than happy to jump the rolex queue and mockery in order to wear one.
I am against buying products with the sole purpose of 'flipping' them however some people don't care and some are more than happy to jump the rolex queue and mockery in order to wear one.
joshcowin said:
The flippers are inflating the price of rolex, surely more people are trying to buy from an AD now due to the extremely high used values of certain models. If the AD's were not so arrogant maybe I would feel pitty for them but I don't, Rolex are onto a win win I am sure they would not like WOS holding onto warranty cards. All the time we are taling about them their brand is increasing in value, all the time Rolex's sell for over list on the 2nd hand market Rolex brand is increasing in value.
I am against buying products with the sole purpose of 'flipping' them however some people don't care and some are more than happy to jump the rolex queue and mockery in order to wear one.
Hi, I don't think the AD's are arrogant - probably more sick to death of getting 10 enquiries a day for something they don't have, and very rarely get. I bought a Daytona in 2003 and TBH I'd rather it was worth £3k, then I would probably worry less about being robbed. (Irrelevant, but I was offered £3k for it from WOS in 2010!).I am against buying products with the sole purpose of 'flipping' them however some people don't care and some are more than happy to jump the rolex queue and mockery in order to wear one.
(ETA I paid £6k for it on interest free credit)
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