looking for fireball dinghy experts...a few questions
Discussion
having at last got myself a fireball and had the mick taken at my local club (I'm now fleet captain - due to there being only one fireball there - mine), I actually got a chance to rig it yesterday. This confirmed that I think I have bought a sound boat with reasonable kit.
I have some questions though, and as there are no fellow fleet members to ask - I thought I'd try you lot.
1.does the mast step need to be fixed with a nut bolt either side?
2.the rudder setup looks a bit daft with a pin to keep it locked vertical. If I hit the dirt, I suspect the rudder will just split in half starting where the pin goes through it. Can't half raise it either. Is this normal?
3.I was expecting the main sheet to go up inside the boom, coming back down over the transom with two lines. Nope there are two single pullys hanging down halfway along the boom. I need to know how the sheet runs through these.
4.the the cunningham has a small wheel on it. So does the main. How do I link the two to flatten the sail?
5.I can't see where the main halliard cleats to. Do I need to pull the main up high enough for wire to pop out the mast, then fix this to the the downward facing teeth on the mast?
any thoughts are welcome !
I have some questions though, and as there are no fellow fleet members to ask - I thought I'd try you lot.
1.does the mast step need to be fixed with a nut bolt either side?
2.the rudder setup looks a bit daft with a pin to keep it locked vertical. If I hit the dirt, I suspect the rudder will just split in half starting where the pin goes through it. Can't half raise it either. Is this normal?
3.I was expecting the main sheet to go up inside the boom, coming back down over the transom with two lines. Nope there are two single pullys hanging down halfway along the boom. I need to know how the sheet runs through these.
4.the the cunningham has a small wheel on it. So does the main. How do I link the two to flatten the sail?
5.I can't see where the main halliard cleats to. Do I need to pull the main up high enough for wire to pop out the mast, then fix this to the the downward facing teeth on the mast?
any thoughts are welcome !
Chimune said:
having at last got myself a fireball and had the mick taken at my local club (I'm now fleet captain - due to there being only one fireball there - mine), I actually got a chance to rig it yesterday. This confirmed that I think I have bought a sound boat with reasonable kit.
I have some questions though, and as there are no fellow fleet members to ask - I thought I'd try you lot.
1.does the mast step need to be fixed with a nut bolt either side?
2.the rudder setup looks a bit daft with a pin to keep it locked vertical. If I hit the dirt, I suspect the rudder will just split in half starting where the pin goes through it. Can't half raise it either. Is this normal?
3.I was expecting the main sheet to go up inside the boom, coming back down over the transom with two lines. Nope there are two single pullys hanging down halfway along the boom. I need to know how the sheet runs through these.
4.the the cunningham has a small wheel on it. So does the main. How do I link the two to flatten the sail?
5.I can't see where the main halliard cleats to. Do I need to pull the main up high enough for wire to pop out the mast, then fix this to the the downward facing teeth on the mast?
any thoughts are welcome !
1:yesI have some questions though, and as there are no fellow fleet members to ask - I thought I'd try you lot.
1.does the mast step need to be fixed with a nut bolt either side?
2.the rudder setup looks a bit daft with a pin to keep it locked vertical. If I hit the dirt, I suspect the rudder will just split in half starting where the pin goes through it. Can't half raise it either. Is this normal?
3.I was expecting the main sheet to go up inside the boom, coming back down over the transom with two lines. Nope there are two single pullys hanging down halfway along the boom. I need to know how the sheet runs through these.
4.the the cunningham has a small wheel on it. So does the main. How do I link the two to flatten the sail?
5.I can't see where the main halliard cleats to. Do I need to pull the main up high enough for wire to pop out the mast, then fix this to the the downward facing teeth on the mast?
any thoughts are welcome !
2:Quite normal as is losing a transom.(although you can set up a rope down- haul)
3:center main sheet once again normal on older balls.
4: many ways of doing it, mine comes back to the helmsman.
5:That's how its done.
ETA: welcome to the wonderful world of Fireballs.
Edited by dirkgently on Sunday 8th April 12:25
Chimune said:
having at last got myself a fireball and had the mick taken at my local club (I'm now fleet captain - due to there being only one fireball there - mine), I actually got a chance to rig it yesterday. This confirmed that I think I have bought a sound boat with reasonable kit.
I have some questions though, and as there are no fellow fleet members to ask - I thought I'd try you lot.
1.does the mast step need to be fixed with a nut bolt either side?
2.the rudder setup looks a bit daft with a pin to keep it locked vertical. If I hit the dirt, I suspect the rudder will just split in half starting where the pin goes through it. Can't half raise it either. Is this normal?
3.I was expecting the main sheet to go up inside the boom, coming back down over the transom with two lines. Nope there are two single pullys hanging down halfway along the boom. I need to know how the sheet runs through these.
4.the the cunningham has a small wheel on it. So does the main. How do I link the two to flatten the sail?
5.I can't see where the main halliard cleats to. Do I need to pull the main up high enough for wire to pop out the mast, then fix this to the the downward facing teeth on the mast?
any thoughts are welcome !
I'm going to have a go at answering too. I have some questions though, and as there are no fellow fleet members to ask - I thought I'd try you lot.
1.does the mast step need to be fixed with a nut bolt either side?
2.the rudder setup looks a bit daft with a pin to keep it locked vertical. If I hit the dirt, I suspect the rudder will just split in half starting where the pin goes through it. Can't half raise it either. Is this normal?
3.I was expecting the main sheet to go up inside the boom, coming back down over the transom with two lines. Nope there are two single pullys hanging down halfway along the boom. I need to know how the sheet runs through these.
4.the the cunningham has a small wheel on it. So does the main. How do I link the two to flatten the sail?
5.I can't see where the main halliard cleats to. Do I need to pull the main up high enough for wire to pop out the mast, then fix this to the the downward facing teeth on the mast?
any thoughts are welcome !
Your rudder will be setup according to the last owner's preferences, an up haul/down haul system can be rigged up with the downhaul rope incorporating some bungee which allows some give if you hit the bottom or a rock. If you don't want a fixed rudder then ask your local 'ball friends for help they will advise you or point in the direction of a second hand one.
The main sheet has many ways of being rigged, it sounds like you were expecting a laser style system but you have a different one obviously. My Mersin rocket back in the day had two blocks on the boom, a block on the traveller and a fixed swivel/cleat on the after end of the Centre board. The sheet was tied off on the traveller block, up to the forward boom pulley going forward through it, back down to the traveller pulley going aft through it, up to the after boom pulley going aft and the finally down to the cleat.
The small wheel on the Cunningham is so that you can lead controls to both sides of the boat. The wheel on the MR would be attached to a rope that is attached to the sail. The system shouldn't be connected to the main, it is a depower tool which should work independently of it. The main sheet is the sail angle control, the kicker, out haul & Cunningham are used as 3 separate controls to control the sail tension/shape.
You have the right idea on the main halyard. These systems are a pain, but are good and simple. PITA to put the right tension on in a blow, you can change to adjustable high field levers.
Good luck with it, the fireball is a beast and learning the above will be a challenge but I'm sure you'll get there
with regard the rudder, the pin keeps it properly locked down when sailing = particularly useful when you are making good progress in a blow with the kite up. theres nothing worse than the rudder kicking up in that situation!!. You just need to remember to lean over the transom when approaching the shore and pul it out. Another option would be to rug up a rope downhaul, particularly with one of those "fly off" cleats so that if you hit the bottom it automatically lets go.
cheers guys.hope you don't mind me picking your brains some more - and probably over the next few months as I get acustomed to the boat...
took some photos so I can figure this stuff out on me sofa !
1. re the mainsheet path. This is what I have:
yes I was expecting a laser type setup - that's what it looks like on the rigging pdfs I was looking at, but perhaps they are for new style winder boats...
2. Trapezes have this daft looking setup:
there are deck style cleats hanging down and a load of old rope and knots which havnt been moved for a long time. There must be a tidier way - what's the normal setup?
3. Top spar ( or is it a baton? ). This is sticking out a bit and fits differently than the others. It has two reverse hooks keeping it in. Is this a sign of a repair/upgrade?
took some photos so I can figure this stuff out on me sofa !
1. re the mainsheet path. This is what I have:
yes I was expecting a laser type setup - that's what it looks like on the rigging pdfs I was looking at, but perhaps they are for new style winder boats...
2. Trapezes have this daft looking setup:
there are deck style cleats hanging down and a load of old rope and knots which havnt been moved for a long time. There must be a tidier way - what's the normal setup?
3. Top spar ( or is it a baton? ). This is sticking out a bit and fits differently than the others. It has two reverse hooks keeping it in. Is this a sign of a repair/upgrade?
mainsheet - tie off the end on the becket of the block attached to the hoop, up around the block on the right of your pic, back down though the lower pulley with the becket on, then up again to the block on the strop, finally down through the pivoted block and through the eye of the jamming cleat - make sure you go the correct way around the blocks for smooth running!
No idea about trapezes
top batten is adjustable- so you can dial in curve/keep flat at the top of the sail. A fireball sail tuning guide will probably tell you how to set this up. I would set it up with just a little tension on the batten to start with and go from there, unless you find specific advice
No idea about trapezes
top batten is adjustable- so you can dial in curve/keep flat at the top of the sail. A fireball sail tuning guide will probably tell you how to set this up. I would set it up with just a little tension on the batten to start with and go from there, unless you find specific advice
The trapeze cleat has had it's adjustment tied off for some reason, past crew preferences?
Untie the knot below the grey cleat. You will then be able to pull the rope downwards shortening the distance (via pulleys know doubt) between this grey cleat and the trapeze loop. The cleat stops it going back under tension, it's so your crew can decide how wet they they get
(adjust their angle). To let themselve down, they will flick the rope upwards until they are the desired height then lok it back to the cleat. The black thing you are holding is so that dedicated crews can hold on with one hand, swing themselves out over the side whilst hooking in with the other hand.
Untie the knot below the grey cleat. You will then be able to pull the rope downwards shortening the distance (via pulleys know doubt) between this grey cleat and the trapeze loop. The cleat stops it going back under tension, it's so your crew can decide how wet they they get
(adjust their angle). To let themselve down, they will flick the rope upwards until they are the desired height then lok it back to the cleat. The black thing you are holding is so that dedicated crews can hold on with one hand, swing themselves out over the side whilst hooking in with the other hand.Edited by jains15 on Sunday 8th April 23:10
11836 I think that belonged to Methuselah when he was youngWhat is the name?
On the centre board case you have controls for the kicker and out-haul, so the Cunningham probably runs to a cleat under the boom close to the gooseneck. Do not untie the knot on the trapeze cut it and replace with new string,your crew will thank you for it and yes quite normal.
What is the name? On the centre board case you have controls for the kicker and out-haul, so the Cunningham probably runs to a cleat under the boom close to the gooseneck. Do not untie the knot on the trapeze cut it and replace with new string,your crew will thank you for it
and yes quite normal. That looks like a Plycraft boat to me!
Couple of other things. Get your main up to the black band with the boom of the gooseneck, cleat the halyard, then fit the boom. Much easier. Also, if your sails are old, unpick the bottom 6" of the bolt rope stitching to allow for the fact the bolt rope will have shrunk, and then restitch.
Rudder pin...make sure it's plastic (an old knitting needle works well) so it will break if you ground. If it's a wooden blade its a good idea to drill the hole way oversize, fill with epoxy, then re drill to the right size for the needle. Ensure the rudder is vertical.
And get rid of those trap handles, its a perfect way to gain a black eye or lose teeth...you are far better with the small plastic discs these days. And I would also guess that the trap adjusters have been tied as they are shot...do your crew a favour and buy new.
Ditch that hoop and go for transom sheeting. But do not, whatever you do, cut the split tail of your new mainsheet too short. When centrelined on full forward rake (22'8") the split needs to be a good 12"-18" inside the boom.
Looks like a nice boat...enjoy!
Couple of other things. Get your main up to the black band with the boom of the gooseneck, cleat the halyard, then fit the boom. Much easier. Also, if your sails are old, unpick the bottom 6" of the bolt rope stitching to allow for the fact the bolt rope will have shrunk, and then restitch.
Rudder pin...make sure it's plastic (an old knitting needle works well) so it will break if you ground. If it's a wooden blade its a good idea to drill the hole way oversize, fill with epoxy, then re drill to the right size for the needle. Ensure the rudder is vertical.
And get rid of those trap handles, its a perfect way to gain a black eye or lose teeth...you are far better with the small plastic discs these days. And I would also guess that the trap adjusters have been tied as they are shot...do your crew a favour and buy new.
Ditch that hoop and go for transom sheeting. But do not, whatever you do, cut the split tail of your new mainsheet too short. When centrelined on full forward rake (22'8") the split needs to be a good 12"-18" inside the boom.
Looks like a nice boat...enjoy!
Hard-Drive said:
I'd disagree...a tight reach with an old kite is going to be a handful without ratchets for the crew. My mainsheet is split tail, but with an additional purchase, and the ratchet only ever goes on north of 20knots. That said, with a 1:1 main, it does need to go on earlier.
You need to get your crew to man up a bit. saying that I fitted them to my boat to stop my wife whingeing, worth every penny.Eventually got time to take my new dinghy out on Sunday for it maiden voyage.
Was solo with about 15-20mph wind. Was out for about 2hrs and got two captize drills ( ) in.
1st thoughts are - wow - very fast and very sensitive.
I was spilling a lot of wind - but thats partly due to my unfitness and inability to lean right out for more than ~ 60 secnds - belly muscles rather sore this morning !
What really amazed me was the difference just 2 inches on the main sheet made. Someone mentioned that Fireballs have a very narrow performance band - that they are simple to sail badly, but very difficult to sail very fast - this statement is obvious to me now.
It planes very easily - it must be utterly mental on a reach with wire based crew !!
Other things of note were:
The speed at which she went turtle after captize. 60 seconds perhaps ! As its quite tireing getting it back up from 180degs on my own, i may have to tie something small and floaty to the top of the mast. Dunno what yet..
Nice and easy to get back in though - as it sits so low in the water.
Noticed some water in both port and starboard boyancy tanks afterwards. Need to see why thats happening.
Having vertically pointing jib sheet cleat comming up from seat isnt very handy for solo use. I may need to add a second set pointing at me.
And Hard-Drive was correct - having to pull down to uncleat the main is a baaad idea !
Love the mainsheet route and design though . Lots of room in the cockpit and not too many sheets swilling around. Tacking is easy ! Gybing lead to captize both times ...
The toothed main halliard 'cleat' thing is a pita ! it took all my strength to hoist the main up high enough to get the wire on only the very top tooth. Perhaps just adding a long shackle to attach the main, will bring it down the mast a bit. but i still dont like the setup. Unless this solved by Hard-Drives suggestion of 'unpick the bottom 6" of the bolt rope stitching' ?
I need to setup a rope system to raise and lower the rudder without having to dive over the transom and use the butterfly/pin combo.
To reply to some of the other outstanding questions above:
dirkgently - yes its an old boat - 1972 - i have all the original order and build logs, parts lists and costs, plus the measurement cert etc. im a sucker for history ! I wonder if its coincidence that 40 years after i was born, i have purchased a boat and a house - both built in 1972 !
Hard-Drive - yes its a plycraft boat - how can you tell ? Do you know the yard ? Someone called Neale is listed as builder too.
Class moment - someone on shore overheard by the gf, exclaiming - "bloody hell - is that a Fireball? !"
Was solo with about 15-20mph wind. Was out for about 2hrs and got two captize drills (
) in.1st thoughts are - wow - very fast and very sensitive.
I was spilling a lot of wind - but thats partly due to my unfitness and inability to lean right out for more than ~ 60 secnds - belly muscles rather sore this morning !
What really amazed me was the difference just 2 inches on the main sheet made. Someone mentioned that Fireballs have a very narrow performance band - that they are simple to sail badly, but very difficult to sail very fast - this statement is obvious to me now.
It planes very easily - it must be utterly mental on a reach with wire based crew !!
Other things of note were:
The speed at which she went turtle after captize. 60 seconds perhaps ! As its quite tireing getting it back up from 180degs on my own, i may have to tie something small and floaty to the top of the mast. Dunno what yet..
Nice and easy to get back in though - as it sits so low in the water.
Noticed some water in both port and starboard boyancy tanks afterwards. Need to see why thats happening.
Having vertically pointing jib sheet cleat comming up from seat isnt very handy for solo use. I may need to add a second set pointing at me.
And Hard-Drive was correct - having to pull down to uncleat the main is a baaad idea !
Love the mainsheet route and design though . Lots of room in the cockpit and not too many sheets swilling around. Tacking is easy ! Gybing lead to captize both times ...
The toothed main halliard 'cleat' thing is a pita ! it took all my strength to hoist the main up high enough to get the wire on only the very top tooth. Perhaps just adding a long shackle to attach the main, will bring it down the mast a bit. but i still dont like the setup. Unless this solved by Hard-Drives suggestion of 'unpick the bottom 6" of the bolt rope stitching' ?
I need to setup a rope system to raise and lower the rudder without having to dive over the transom and use the butterfly/pin combo.
To reply to some of the other outstanding questions above:
dirkgently - yes its an old boat - 1972 - i have all the original order and build logs, parts lists and costs, plus the measurement cert etc. im a sucker for history ! I wonder if its coincidence that 40 years after i was born, i have purchased a boat and a house - both built in 1972 !
Hard-Drive - yes its a plycraft boat - how can you tell ? Do you know the yard ? Someone called Neale is listed as builder too.
Class moment - someone on shore overheard by the gf, exclaiming - "bloody hell - is that a Fireball? !"
Chimune said:
The toothed main halliard 'cleat' thing is a pita ! it took all my strength to hoist the main up high enough to get the wire on only the very top tooth. Perhaps just adding a long shackle to attach the main, will bring it down the mast a bit. but i still dont like the setup. Unless this solved by Hard-Drives suggestion of 'unpick the bottom 6" of the bolt rope stitching' ?
You may find that with a bit of use the bolt rope will stretch out a bit (esp if you got it wet abit!) did you check that the pulley wheel at the top if the mast was able to spin freely, they can get stuck with a bit of corrosion.
Depending on the way the sheave sits at the top of your mast, using a longer shackle may not help much as the end of the wire will still be in the same position, but the sail will not be up to the black band making it baggy at the bottom.
Edited by sawman on Monday 28th May 17:34
Chimune said:
cheers guys.hope you don't mind me picking your brains some more - and probably over the next few months as I get acustomed to the boat...
took some photos so I can figure this stuff out on me sofa !
1. re the mainsheet path. This is what I have:
yes I was expecting a laser type setup - that's what it looks like on the rigging pdfs I was looking at, but perhaps they are for new style winder boats...
perfectly standard centre main, from the type of blocks fitted i wouldn't be suprised if that was the original set up given the sail no... the blocks certainly look 'classic' took some photos so I can figure this stuff out on me sofa !
1. re the mainsheet path. This is what I have:
yes I was expecting a laser type setup - that's what it looks like on the rigging pdfs I was looking at, but perhaps they are for new style winder boats...
Chimune said:
2. Trapezes have this daft looking setup:
there are deck style cleats hanging down and a load of old rope and knots which havnt been moved for a long time. There must be a tidier way - what's the normal setup?
again perfectly normal to have adjustable height on the rings there are deck style cleats hanging down and a load of old rope and knots which havnt been moved for a long time. There must be a tidier way - what's the normal setup?
Chimune said:
3. Top spar ( or is it a baton? ). This is sticking out a bit and fits differently than the others. It has two reverse hooks keeping it in. Is this a sign of a repair/upgrade?
again perfectly normal for a full length top batten to fit differently to part length ones, the end fittings will allow you to adjust the batten tension .the rigging appears to be 'state of the ark' i.e. fundamentally untouched for many years , possibly since the boat was built ( how old is an 11000 sail no FB ?)
Thanks guys. I can confirm that the mast is only a few seasons old.
also I realised my shackle idea wasn't going to work just after I posted. I was reading elsewhere that part wire,part rope main halliards were only used as the older ropes stretched too much. Modern ropes don't though, so many people replace it and fix with a horn cleat. I'm sure that's what my mirror had and it was simple to drop the main when reaching land.
btw- whats the best way of freeing up aluminium pullies that refuse to turn anymore ? heat ?
also I realised my shackle idea wasn't going to work just after I posted. I was reading elsewhere that part wire,part rope main halliards were only used as the older ropes stretched too much. Modern ropes don't though, so many people replace it and fix with a horn cleat. I'm sure that's what my mirror had and it was simple to drop the main when reaching land.
btw- whats the best way of freeing up aluminium pullies that refuse to turn anymore ? heat ?
dirkgently said:
mph1977 said:
the rigging appears to be 'state of the ark' i.e. fundamentally untouched for many years , possibly since the boat was built ( how old is an 11000 sail no FB ?)
No that has been re-riged, in 1972 it probably had a state of the art floppy rig and bendy boom.i suspect in 197-blur it had either a weak kicker or a lever job - has it got a cascade now - but again cascade kickers are hardly state of the art being bog standard fare 20 + years ago , it;s all upside down Strut 'gnavs' post the 4 and 5-tonners
the clamcleats on the trapeze with the small block built in to the back were a 'new' idea 20 some yearsago
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