HMS Queen Elizabeth

[Mave]

98elise said:

Mave said:

98elise said:

Mave said:

98elise said:

You really haven't thought about this.....and you're arguing with a pilot!

Which bit of what I wrote do you disagree with?

Everything. I don't think you understand how planes fly, or how aircraft carriers operate!

You think I don't understand how planes fly because I think that if an aircraft has a 10 degree crosswind limit, you don't want to design an aircraft carrier to have a nominal 9 degree crosswind all the time?

You think I don't understand how aircraft carriers operate because I think the angle between the keel and the flight deck is fixed?

If those are your thoughts, then I don't think much of them!

I served on them long enough to understand how they operate

And I've worked with aircraft long enough to know how they fly. Now we've finished Willy waving our CVs around, which bit of what I posted do you disagree with and why?

It was a cold, still day on my cycle to work this morning. For some reason, no matter which direction I was travelling, the damn wind was always blowing directly into my face!

Edited by Mave on Wednesday 9th January 21:13

[98elise]

Mave said:

98elise said:

Mave said:

98elise said:

Mave said:

98elise said:

You really haven't thought about this.....and you're arguing with a pilot!

Which bit of what I wrote do you disagree with?

Everything. I don't think you understand how planes fly, or how aircraft carriers operate!

You think I don't understand how planes fly because I think that if an aircraft has a 10 degree crosswind limit, you don't want to design an aircraft carrier to have a nominal 9 degree crosswind all the time?

You think I don't understand how aircraft carriers operate because I think the angle between the keel and the flight deck is fixed?

If those are your thoughts, then I don't think much of them!

I served on them long enough to understand how they operate

And I've worked with aircraft long enough to know how they fly. Now we've finished Willy waving our CVs around, which bit of what I posted do you disagree with and why?

Sail with the deck into the wind and the cross wind is zero. Aircraft carriers can position their deck at any angle to the wind they want to. Not something you can do with a runway.

Which aircraft has 10 degree cross wind limit anyway?

[ecsrobin]

98elise said:

Sail with the deck into the wind and the cross wind is zero. Aircraft carriers can position their deck at any angle to the wind they want to. Not something you can do with a runway.

Which aircraft has 10 degree cross wind limit anyway?

The BBMF baby spits are 10kt crosswind limit. The rest are 15kt IIRC the F35 I’d imagine is in to the high 20’s.

[Mave]

98elise said:

Mave said:

98elise said:

Mave said:

98elise said:

Mave said:

98elise said:

You really haven't thought about this.....and you're arguing with a pilot!

Which bit of what I wrote do you disagree with?

Everything. I don't think you understand how planes fly, or how aircraft carriers operate!

You think I don't understand how planes fly because I think that if an aircraft has a 10 degree crosswind limit, you don't want to design an aircraft carrier to have a nominal 9 degree crosswind all the time?

You think I don't understand how aircraft carriers operate because I think the angle between the keel and the flight deck is fixed?

If those are your thoughts, then I don't think much of them!

I served on them long enough to understand how they operate

And I've worked with aircraft long enough to know how they fly. Now we've finished Willy waving our CVs around, which bit of what I posted do you disagree with and why?

Sail with the deck into the wind and the cross wind is zero.

Not if the deck isn't aligned to the keel. Take the example of a 9 degree deck. If the wind is coming from the North, then to put the deck into the wind the ship will be on a 9 degree heading. The cross wind will not be zero.

98elise said:

Which aircraft has 10 degree cross wind limit anyway?

As I posted earlier, the AV8B is 10 degrees and 10 knots. I couldn't find anything for the Sea Harrier. IIRC the F35B in STOVL is 15 knots.

Edited by Mave on Wednesday 9th January 22:53

[98elise]

ecsrobin said:

98elise said:

Sail with the deck into the wind and the cross wind is zero. Aircraft carriers can position their deck at any angle to the wind they want to. Not something you can do with a runway.

Which aircraft has 10 degree cross wind limit anyway?

The BBMF baby spits are 10kt crosswind limit. The rest are 15kt IIRC the F35 I’d imagine is in to the high 20’s.

How many baby spits operate from aircraft carriers?

[98elise]

Mave said:

98elise said:

Mave said:

98elise said:

Mave said:

98elise said:

Mave said:

98elise said:

You really haven't thought about this.....and you're arguing with a pilot!

Which bit of what I wrote do you disagree with?

Everything. I don't think you understand how planes fly, or how aircraft carriers operate!

You think I don't understand how planes fly because I think that if an aircraft has a 10 degree crosswind limit, you don't want to design an aircraft carrier to have a nominal 9 degree crosswind all the time?

You think I don't understand how aircraft carriers operate because I think the angle between the keel and the flight deck is fixed?

If those are your thoughts, then I don't think much of them!

I served on them long enough to understand how they operate

And I've worked with aircraft long enough to know how they fly. Now we've finished Willy waving our CVs around, which bit of what I posted do you disagree with and why?

Sail with the deck into the wind and the cross wind is zero.

Not if the deck isn't aligned to the keel. Take the example of a 9 degree deck. If the wind is coming from the North, then to put the deck into the wind the ship will be on a 9 degree heading. The cross wind will not be zero.

98elise said:

Which aircraft has 10 degree cross wind limit anyway?

As I posted earlier, the AV8B is 10 degrees and 10 knots. I couldn't find anything for the Sea Harrier. IIRC the F35B in STOVL is 15 knots.

Edited by Mave on Wednesday 9th January 22:53

I see what you are trying to say however the cross wind is not determined by the angle of the deck alone. It includes the speed of the ship and the actual wind speed and direction. The speed and direction of the deck are under control therefore you can control the relative crosswind

Edited by 98elise on Thursday 10th January 11:40

[ecsrobin]

This should help

[Cold]

Please forward any thoughts on future aircraft carrier design to:
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/minist... and/or:
https://www.baesystems.com/en/home and/or:
https://www.thalesgroup.com/en

They're waiting for your contact.

[Mave]

98elise said:

I see what you are trying to say however the cross wind is not determined by the angle of the deck alone. It includes the speed of the ship and the actual wind speed and direction.
The speed and direction of the deck are under control therefore you can control the relative crosswind

Edited by 98elise on Thursday 10th January 11:40

I know, and I've never said otherwise. You are actually now saying the same thing that I said weeks ago which people disagreed with. Its less to do with "how carriers operate" and "how aeroplanes fly" than basic geometries and vectors. Your statement "Sail with the deck into the wind and the cross wind is zero" and Ginetta's statement "all the Carrier has to do is steer 9 degrees off the wind and then the headwind is straight down the deck" both ignore those basic geometries and vectors.

Edited by Mave on Thursday 10th January 20:06

[Cold]

Still being tinkered with while alongside at PMH. Today saw the first of three Phalanx-1B guns glued into place. Phalanx-1B is a 20mm rapid fire radar and electro-optical guided gun that can chuck out rounds at a rate of 4500 per minute at anti-ship missiles and surface targets.





Picture credit: InShOt.

[baldy1926]

Cold said:

Still being tinkered with while alongside at PMH. Today saw the first of three Phalanx-1B guns glued into place. Phalanx-1B is a 20mm rapid fire radar and electro-optical guided gun that can chuck out rounds at a rate of 4500 per minute at anti-ship missiles and surface targets.





Picture credit: InShOt.

Are they new units or from other ships being stripped

[98elise]

Cold said:

Still being tinkered with while alongside at PMH. Today saw the first of three Phalanx-1B guns glued into place. Phalanx-1B is a 20mm rapid fire radar and electro-optical guided gun that can chuck out rounds at a rate of 4500 per minute at anti-ship missiles and surface targets.





Picture credit: InShOt.

I was the Phalanx Engineer on Ark Royal for a few years

[Seight_Returns]

Always wondered why Ark had Phalanx and the other 2 CVSs had Goalkeeper.

[Europa1]

Seight_Returns said:

Always wondered why Ark had Phalanx and the other 2 CVSs had Goalkeeper.

What is the difference?

[Tired]

Europa1 said:

Seight_Returns said:

Always wondered why Ark had Phalanx and the other 2 CVSs had Goalkeeper.

What is the difference?

Phalanx is American. Goalkeeper is Dutch.

The other 2 were built first, and had Goalkeeper. Ark Royal was the last of the 3 to be built/comissioned, and received the newer system.

Goalkeeper was used on the Albion class and some T22s before being phased out of RN service IIRC.

[Seight_Returns]

But Invincible (and I think Illustrious) initially had Phalanx as an emergency post Falklands measure before being replaced with Goalkeeper at a subsequent refit. I think.

[RizzoTheRat]

I see Gerald Ford has just done a live fire test of it's integrated defence system that uses Evolved Sea Sparrow and Rolling Airframe Missile. Kuznetzov has a huge amount of SA15, while Charles De Gaulle carries Aster 15 and Mistral. Interesting that the UK has stuck with CIWS and rely more on Type 45 doing area defence rather than carry as much self defence.
Not sure how that effects working in international task forces, would QE only sail with a RN escort due to the different doctrine?

[98elise]

Europa1 said:

Seight_Returns said:

Always wondered why Ark had Phalanx and the other 2 CVSs had Goalkeeper.

What is the difference?

Apart from the obvious being that they are different CIWS systems, phalanx is very easy to retro fit. It's pretty much a self-contained bolt on plug and play system. Goalkeeper requires deck space below the mount so needs to be designed in or as a major refit.

[Tired]

98elise said:

Europa1 said:

Seight_Returns said:

Always wondered why Ark had Phalanx and the other 2 CVSs had Goalkeeper.

What is the difference?

Apart from the obvious being that they are different CIWS systems, phalanx is very easy to retro fit. It's pretty much a self-contained bolt on plug and play system. Goalkeeper requires deck space below the mount so needs to be designed in or as a major refit.

It might be fairly self contained, but you can't just plonk it down on a piece of deck and bolt it down. There are very stringent stiffness and natural frequency requirements for the supporting structure. You're still going in under the deck to rip out some tiddly bulbs and put something substantial in there.

[Speculatore]

From an operators perspective Goalkeeper has a few advantages over Phalanx.

30mm over 20mm
7 independent barrels so the gun keeps firing even after a barrel Jam over gun ceases to function if one barrel jams
Can be reloaded from inside the citadel
Provides a separate radar picture in the ops room with TV so can be aimed and fired manually - Great fun in surface mode