Crash at Shoreham Air show

[aeropilot]

eccles said:

the Thunder city lightning are two that readily spring to mind.

They are enormously expensive things to operate, you either do it right or you shouldn't do it at all.

TC started out doing in right in their early years of ops, but after the people that knew what to do left, for whatever reasons, things started to drift away. It wasn't just the ground element at fault, the pilot also failed to adhere to prescribed OP's as well.
Anyway, different country, different supervising authority.

[eccles]

aeropilot said:

eccles said:

the Thunder city lightning are two that readily spring to mind.

They are enormously expensive things to operate, you either do it right or you shouldn't do it at all.

TC started out doing in right in their early years of ops, but after the people that knew what to do left, for whatever reasons, things started to drift away. It wasn't just the ground element at fault, the pilot also failed to adhere to prescribed OP's as well.
Anyway, different country, different supervising authority.

True, but the Hunter involved at Shoreham had engineering/maintenance anomalies as well.

[anonymous-user]

Thanks chaps - it was a bit of a tangent. I assume that within the realm of ‘vintage’ planes/displays there is some sort of network whereby AH would come up as the right person to be the pilot? If I was a sudden loadsamoney owner of a vintage plane (I’m not and not suggesting anyone was) do I have a responsibility to pick the right person to fly it? Maybe I’m thinking of it more like a car - I have to insure this valuable beast (I believe the owner does rather than the pilot) but a key part of that is who the ‘driver’ is? Maybe a crap analogy- but I recall that previously someone said it would be the owner’s insurance paying out rather than AH insurance?

[aeropilot]

Roman Rhodes said:

Thanks chaps - it was a bit of a tangent. I assume that within the realm of ‘vintage’ planes/displays there is some sort of network whereby AH would come up as the right person to be the pilot?

Not sure what your asking here?

AH satisfied the CAA requirements in existence at the time for a DA on the Hunter.

[eccles]

Roman Rhodes said:

Thanks chaps - it was a bit of a tangent. I assume that within the realm of ‘vintage’ planes/displays there is some sort of network whereby AH would come up as the right person to be the pilot? If I was a sudden loadsamoney owner of a vintage plane (I’m not and not suggesting anyone was) do I have a responsibility to pick the right person to fly it? Maybe I’m thinking of it more like a car - I have to insure this valuable beast (I believe the owner does rather than the pilot) but a key part of that is who the ‘driver’ is? Maybe a crap analogy- but I recall that previously someone said it would be the owner’s insurance paying out rather than AH insurance?

There's no agency you go to hire a display pilot for your aircraft, so you were correct in the assumption it's just networking and contacts that would get a recommendation. Much the same as if you owned a classic grand prix car.

[anonymous-user]

aeropilot said:

Roman Rhodes said:

Thanks chaps - it was a bit of a tangent. I assume that within the realm of ‘vintage’ planes/displays there is some sort of network whereby AH would come up as the right person to be the pilot?

Not sure what your asking here?

AH satisfied the CAA requirements in existence at the time for a DA on the Hunter.

I think Eccles answered my slightly vague question. I suppose I’m wondering whether there could be a more collective ‘sign off’ for these displays. There seem to be several key players: CAA, pilot, plane owner, insurer and show organiser. Don’t each of these (maybe not the CAA) have a vested interest in exactly what display routine is going to be flown? I read somewhere that AH had a bit of a plan written on a piece of paper in his pocket. Would all vested interests had input to this plan?

[eccles]

Roman Rhodes said:

aeropilot said:

Roman Rhodes said:

Thanks chaps - it was a bit of a tangent. I assume that within the realm of ‘vintage’ planes/displays there is some sort of network whereby AH would come up as the right person to be the pilot?

Not sure what your asking here?

AH satisfied the CAA requirements in existence at the time for a DA on the Hunter.

I think Eccles answered my slightly vague question. I suppose I’m wondering whether there could be a more collective ‘sign off’ for these displays. There seem to be several key players: CAA, pilot, plane owner, insurer and show organiser. Don’t each of these (maybe not the CAA) have a vested interest in exactly what display routine is going to be flown? I read somewhere that AH had a bit of a plan written on a piece of paper in his pocket. Would all vested interests had input to this plan?

I think it's a lot more informal than that. You go buy a Hunter, you insure it for display flying, it's then up to you to find a suitably qualified and experienced pilot (CAA will have to approve the pilot for display flying).
I suppose you might say to the pilot you might want a gentle display to keep fatigue life down. But I don't then know if that display has to be submitted to the air show organisers for approval. Each air show has it's own rules and regs and limitations for the display (like at Shoreham you weren't meant to over fly the near by college) .

[Dr Jekyll]

eccles said:

I think it's a lot more informal than that. You go buy a Hunter, you insure it for display flying, it's then up to you to find a suitably qualified and experienced pilot (CAA will have to approve the pilot for display flying).
I suppose you might say to the pilot you might want a gentle display to keep fatigue life down. But I don't then know if that display has to be submitted to the air show organisers for approval. Each air show has it's own rules and regs and limitations for the display (like at Shoreham you weren't meant to over fly the near by college) .

I'm pretty sure there will be an airshow committee approving every display both from the plan and as it's in progress, remember Andy Hill being told to knock it off at Southport.


The basic checks are:

Aircraft has certificate of airworthiness or permit to fly as appropriate.
Aircraft insured.
Pilot has a licence (PPL will do) and in current practice.
Pilot has current medical.
Pilot qualified on type if necessary (for jets or turboprops it will be, otherwise it depends on weight).
Pilot has current display authorisation, for a Hunter I think the authorisation will have to be for that specific type.

I think that's about it.

[eccles]

Dr Jekyll said:

eccles said:

I think it's a lot more informal than that. You go buy a Hunter, you insure it for display flying, it's then up to you to find a suitably qualified and experienced pilot (CAA will have to approve the pilot for display flying).
I suppose you might say to the pilot you might want a gentle display to keep fatigue life down. But I don't then know if that display has to be submitted to the air show organisers for approval. Each air show has it's own rules and regs and limitations for the display (like at Shoreham you weren't meant to over fly the near by college) .

I'm pretty sure there will be an airshow committee approving every display both from the plan and as it's in progress, remember Andy Hill being told to knock it off at Southport.


The basic checks are:

Aircraft has certificate of airworthiness or permit to fly as appropriate.
Aircraft insured.
Pilot has a licence (PPL will do) and in current practice.
Pilot has current medical.
Pilot qualified on type if necessary (for jets or turboprops it will be, otherwise it depends on weight).
Pilot has current display authorisation, for a Hunter I think the authorisation will have to be for that specific type.

I think that's about it.

The Southport event was during a 'live' air show. I've seen TV shows on some American air shows like Oshkosh where display pilots have to perform a practice display before the event, and it has to be approved by the air show committee before it can be done 'live'. I'm not sure if that's the case over here.

[MarkwG]

The relevant documentation pertaining to airshows; http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP403_E16_201...
Application detailing requirements to renew a display pilot authorisation: http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1302Issue12...
Hope it helps

[Robertj21a]

BBC reporting that Farnborough Airshow is off.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-47...

[PurpleTurtle]

Robertj21a said:

BBC reporting that the public display weekend of the Farnborough Airshow is off.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-47...

FTFY. The business of the show goes on.

[Scaleybrat]

PurpleTurtle said:

FTFY. The business of the show goes on.

But has to be a major worry that Paris will become the dominant European trade show and exhibitors will vote with their feet. Despite what ADS are saying, they are bricking it because the loss of revenue is massive for them.

[Eric Mc]

The weekly flying display NOT cancelled - just the public display (which is quite different) held on Saturday and Sunday.

Friday will be open to the public as normal.

[ecsrobin]

The Saturday and Sunday of the air show was crap before Shoreham. I don’t see it as a loss, after all the companies are there to sell planes the only loss will be to the carnival ride operators.

[aeropilot]

ecsrobin said:

The Saturday and Sunday of the air show was crap before Shoreham.

Yep, Farnborough has been crap as a flying display for many years, even before the tragic events at Shoreham, the airshow scene in the UK has been continually shrinking as far as fast, noisy and pointy things go at any rate.
With no RAF At Home displays and no USAFE base displays any more because of massively shrinking military, that pretty much leaves RIAT as the sole 'big' show.
Very sad, but that's life.

[Eric Mc]

Indeed. I understand that the RAF Cosford show can be quite good these days as well.

[ecsrobin]

Eric Mc said:

Indeed. I understand that the RAF Cosford show can be quite good these days as well.

The show is good and the hangars. But it is like a Sunday car boot sale in between.

[anonymous-user]

I understand the jury are currently considering their verdict.

[ralphrj]

Not guilty