Hawker Typhoon
Discussion
The other current major restoration is of JP843 which was for many years being worked on by Roger Marley in this country in his garage ! He got the cockpit centre section fairly completed. The project has now moved on to the organisation in the link below.
http://www.typhoonlegacy.com/
http://www.typhoonlegacy.com/
In normal circumstances, the Typhoon would not have been accepted into service until its problems had been resolved. It had all sorts of issues -
unacceptable performance as an interceptor (its intended role) above 10,000 feet
carbon monoxide entering the cockpit which was never resolved. Pilots were advised to use oxygen at all times
structural weakness in the rear fuselage. Although fishplate strengtheners were added to reinforce the tail structure, this on its own did not solve the problem. Eventually it was discovered that bob-weights in the elevator control lines were causing a resonance induced vibration which caused the tail to fail.
visibility and egress from the original car-door canopy was not great. The bubble canopy improved that problem.
unreliability of the Napier Sabre
The great thing about the Typhoon is that it superseded all these issues and went on to play a very important part in the war, especially an and around D-Day.
unacceptable performance as an interceptor (its intended role) above 10,000 feet
carbon monoxide entering the cockpit which was never resolved. Pilots were advised to use oxygen at all times
structural weakness in the rear fuselage. Although fishplate strengtheners were added to reinforce the tail structure, this on its own did not solve the problem. Eventually it was discovered that bob-weights in the elevator control lines were causing a resonance induced vibration which caused the tail to fail.
visibility and egress from the original car-door canopy was not great. The bubble canopy improved that problem.
unreliability of the Napier Sabre
The great thing about the Typhoon is that it superseded all these issues and went on to play a very important part in the war, especially an and around D-Day.
Yertis said:
Did that persist to the Tempest V Eric?
Not sure. I expect the problem was with the Sabre.The Tempest was flown with three different engines, the Griffon, the Centaurus and the Sabre. The Griffon engine was not used in production variants and the Sabre variants were retired as fighters as soon as World War 2 finished. The Centaurus engine variants continued to serve into the late 1940s.
Having said that, the last Typhoons in RAF service were Sabre engine TT5s (a conversion from the MkV fighter).
tow1709 on Pprune said:
With typical service efficiency I was posted to 164 Hurricane squadron at Warmwell. The aircraft were Mk.IV 'Tank busters' fitted with 2 x 40mm cannons, and they had their full complement of pilots. Thus, I never did get to fly one of these machines, which I was led to believe was really something to be experienced -especially when you fired the cannon, which caused a sudden drop in airspeed due to the recoil! After just one day with this squadron I was posted on to 183 squadron at Harrowbeer on Exmoor. At the time of course I had no means of knowing that much later I was to become a Flight Commander (and for a short time Acting Squadron Leader) on 164.
I arrived at Harrowbeer on 28th July 1943. Then for two days I did nothing but read the pilots' notes on the Typhoon and undergo the oral and written examination on that aircraft. During these two days I spent as much time as I could climbing all over the Typhoon and watching the takeoffs and landings. The first thing I noticed was the noise! The Typhoon had an engine which was more than twice as powerful as the Hurricane and this drove an enormous propeller 14ft in diameter. The terrific noise on take off has been variously described as "tearing calico" and a cross between a roar and a scream. To hear a formation of four taking off together was really an ear shattering experience!
On the 30th July I was told to take up the station Hurricane and do some local flying around the airfield under the watchful eye of the Squadron Commander. By this time I had had over 60 hours flying in a Hurricane, more than most ex OTU pilots, and I must admit that I did a bit of vulgar showing off. I took off in a very steep climbing turn, did one circuit climbing and then dived down and did a runway 'beat-up" followed by pulling up into a roll. I then went round the circuit and came in high so that I could do a sideslipping approach and then landed. It was one of my better landings, and, as soon as I touched down, I opened up and went round again. A couple more circuits and then I landed properly.
The C.O. didn't mention my showing off but just said "O.K. it's Typhoon time tomorrow!" Thus on 31st July 1943 I made my first flight in a Hawker Typhoon. Having read and been examined on the pilots' notes, and having been taught engine starting I knew theoretically what to do but the practice was something different again. Firstly the size of the aircraft was daunting. The wingspan was some 42ft, the cockpit was eight feet off the ground. The total weight was around seven tons! Sitting in the cockpit, which was entered by opening a car-type door and raising up the roof flap, the first impression was of space. There was ample room for me to sit upright without having the seat on the lowest setting and my shoulders were at least six inches away from each side. The instrument panel seemed to be further away and the consoles each side of my knees gave a further impression of space. Looking forward, with the aircraft sitting on the ground with the tail down, all you could see was this enormously long nose stretching away for some six or seven feet in front. It gave the impression of driving a steam locomotive from the foot plate! Taxiing was impossible in a straight line and you had to swing a long way from side to side in order to be able to see what was ahead. Even on takeoff it was not possible to see very far ahead since it was inadvisable to raise the tail too far on the takeoff run. With the aircraft in full flying attitude the clearance under the propeller was less than six inches, and therefore we were advised to take off in a tail-down attitude, especially from grass airfields!
The engine starter on the Napier 'Sabre' engine, with which the Typhoon was fitted, was unusual in that it was operated by a cartridge. This cartridge, when fired, generated high pressure gas which was used to force a cylinder along a barrel. The horizontal travel of the cylinder was converted to rotary motion by a worm thread and this turned the engine over. Providing the pilot had carried out the correct priming procedure the engine nearly always started first firing. Under-priming caused a false start and then a backfire. Over-priming either caused a fire in the air intake (a ground crew member always had to stand by with a fire extinguisher when starting), or, more likely, sheets of flame from the exhausts which washed down each side of the cockpit. It was a favourite trick of the engineering staff, when teaching a new pilot how to start the engine, to have the pilot standing on the wing leaning into the cockpit. They would then slightly over-prime the cylinders and the unfortunate pilot would find himself knee-deep in flames. This was not as serious as it sounds, since the flames were immediately blown back and away by the propeller wash before they could do more than feel slightly warm. If by any chance the engine did fail to start, you had four more attempts available before having to have the ground staff come and reload the cartridge magazine. In normal squadron operation it was very unusual for the engine to fail to start since the standard of maintenance was, in my experience, unfailingly high. The fitters, riggers, armourers and all the ground crews took a fierce pride in their work and most of them looked on the aircraft as if it were their own. They kindly lent it to the pilots to fly but woe betide any pilot who damaged the aircraft through carelessness or bad flying. Damage by the enemy however was a different matter, and was treated as an honourable battle scar.
I arrived at Harrowbeer on 28th July 1943. Then for two days I did nothing but read the pilots' notes on the Typhoon and undergo the oral and written examination on that aircraft. During these two days I spent as much time as I could climbing all over the Typhoon and watching the takeoffs and landings. The first thing I noticed was the noise! The Typhoon had an engine which was more than twice as powerful as the Hurricane and this drove an enormous propeller 14ft in diameter. The terrific noise on take off has been variously described as "tearing calico" and a cross between a roar and a scream. To hear a formation of four taking off together was really an ear shattering experience!
On the 30th July I was told to take up the station Hurricane and do some local flying around the airfield under the watchful eye of the Squadron Commander. By this time I had had over 60 hours flying in a Hurricane, more than most ex OTU pilots, and I must admit that I did a bit of vulgar showing off. I took off in a very steep climbing turn, did one circuit climbing and then dived down and did a runway 'beat-up" followed by pulling up into a roll. I then went round the circuit and came in high so that I could do a sideslipping approach and then landed. It was one of my better landings, and, as soon as I touched down, I opened up and went round again. A couple more circuits and then I landed properly.
The C.O. didn't mention my showing off but just said "O.K. it's Typhoon time tomorrow!" Thus on 31st July 1943 I made my first flight in a Hawker Typhoon. Having read and been examined on the pilots' notes, and having been taught engine starting I knew theoretically what to do but the practice was something different again. Firstly the size of the aircraft was daunting. The wingspan was some 42ft, the cockpit was eight feet off the ground. The total weight was around seven tons! Sitting in the cockpit, which was entered by opening a car-type door and raising up the roof flap, the first impression was of space. There was ample room for me to sit upright without having the seat on the lowest setting and my shoulders were at least six inches away from each side. The instrument panel seemed to be further away and the consoles each side of my knees gave a further impression of space. Looking forward, with the aircraft sitting on the ground with the tail down, all you could see was this enormously long nose stretching away for some six or seven feet in front. It gave the impression of driving a steam locomotive from the foot plate! Taxiing was impossible in a straight line and you had to swing a long way from side to side in order to be able to see what was ahead. Even on takeoff it was not possible to see very far ahead since it was inadvisable to raise the tail too far on the takeoff run. With the aircraft in full flying attitude the clearance under the propeller was less than six inches, and therefore we were advised to take off in a tail-down attitude, especially from grass airfields!
The engine starter on the Napier 'Sabre' engine, with which the Typhoon was fitted, was unusual in that it was operated by a cartridge. This cartridge, when fired, generated high pressure gas which was used to force a cylinder along a barrel. The horizontal travel of the cylinder was converted to rotary motion by a worm thread and this turned the engine over. Providing the pilot had carried out the correct priming procedure the engine nearly always started first firing. Under-priming caused a false start and then a backfire. Over-priming either caused a fire in the air intake (a ground crew member always had to stand by with a fire extinguisher when starting), or, more likely, sheets of flame from the exhausts which washed down each side of the cockpit. It was a favourite trick of the engineering staff, when teaching a new pilot how to start the engine, to have the pilot standing on the wing leaning into the cockpit. They would then slightly over-prime the cylinders and the unfortunate pilot would find himself knee-deep in flames. This was not as serious as it sounds, since the flames were immediately blown back and away by the propeller wash before they could do more than feel slightly warm. If by any chance the engine did fail to start, you had four more attempts available before having to have the ground staff come and reload the cartridge magazine. In normal squadron operation it was very unusual for the engine to fail to start since the standard of maintenance was, in my experience, unfailingly high. The fitters, riggers, armourers and all the ground crews took a fierce pride in their work and most of them looked on the aircraft as if it were their own. They kindly lent it to the pilots to fly but woe betide any pilot who damaged the aircraft through carelessness or bad flying. Damage by the enemy however was a different matter, and was treated as an honourable battle scar.
I once spoke to an ex employee of Napier who was working in an aircraft museum. I brought up the subject of the Typhoon Sabre's tendency to burst into flames on start up and he was not very sympathetic about this. He muttered something along the lines of "It's a large capacity engine, if you don't follow the starting procedure properly because you are young and impetuous and it doesn't start, there will be lots of unburnt fuel sloshing about with predictable results when it does fire up " He felt a lot of fires were caused by not waiting long enough between starting attempts.
I thought this a bit harsh as they may have been young and impetuous but they were also probably stressed and wondering whether they would live to see another dawn. Operational requirements with a group of aircraft starting up simultaneously would also reduce their ability to start it at their leisure.
Still, I think he felt better for having a moan.
I thought this a bit harsh as they may have been young and impetuous but they were also probably stressed and wondering whether they would live to see another dawn. Operational requirements with a group of aircraft starting up simultaneously would also reduce their ability to start it at their leisure.
Still, I think he felt better for having a moan.
Just going to pop over to France, stooge around, shot up a train or two and back home for tea and a wad !
Great plane - me at Hendon a few years back.
I'm such a fan, I bought two Band Dessinee comic books ( vol 1 and 2 ) while in France last year called Typhoon with outstanding illustrations by the author,Christophe Gibelin
..
Great plane - me at Hendon a few years back.
I'm such a fan, I bought two Band Dessinee comic books ( vol 1 and 2 ) while in France last year called Typhoon with outstanding illustrations by the author,Christophe Gibelin
..
BryanC said:
Just going to pop over to France, stooge around, shot up a train or two and back home for tea and a wad !
Great plane - me at Hendon a few years back.
I'm such a fan, I bought two Band Dessinee comic books ( vol 1 and 2 ) while in France last year called Typhoon with outstanding illustrations by the author,Christophe Gibelin
..
Went off to amazon.fr and... thanks a bunch for that – another drain on my income... Great plane - me at Hendon a few years back.
I'm such a fan, I bought two Band Dessinee comic books ( vol 1 and 2 ) while in France last year called Typhoon with outstanding illustrations by the author,Christophe Gibelin
..
If I'd had access to that lot when I was a kid I'd be fluent in French by now, or at least French as spoken in aerial combat.
Interesting that the UK project has acquired a complete Sabre engine, at least they seem realistic in saying its a £4-6 million project.
Since the Canadian project has a complete Sabre engine too, along with Kermit Weeks who has another two engines for his Tempest V restoration, hopefully they can share info and perhaps rebuild costs when they figure out by who and how you actually go about it on an engine that no one seems to have touched for 60 years.
Since the Canadian project has a complete Sabre engine too, along with Kermit Weeks who has another two engines for his Tempest V restoration, hopefully they can share info and perhaps rebuild costs when they figure out by who and how you actually go about it on an engine that no one seems to have touched for 60 years.
Yertis said:
Went off to amazon.fr and... thanks a bunch for that – another drain on my income...
If I'd had access to that lot when I was a kid I'd be fluent in French by now, or at least French as spoken in aerial combat.
You wont regret it. If I'd had access to that lot when I was a kid I'd be fluent in French by now, or at least French as spoken in aerial combat.
Obviously its very French - the pilots got the racy ladies in the story etc. but some real gems in the illustrations.
Hopefully I might hint to others to spend a few quid too. One from one book, the other, part of the appendix showing his preliminary sketches.
El stovey said:
What a fantastic post from the bloke that flew the typhoon, I love these kind of accounts.
I read a great RAF book years ago that was all short accounts like that. Marvellous.
Thanks for posting that. I usually avoid pprune but it seems that it’s got some good bits.
The 'gaining a pilot's brevet in WWII' thread is a great read - started by someone writing about his memories of flying training who wanted to fly Spitfires but ended up on Lancs, then more WWII aviators contributed, including the Typhoon pilot, a Spitfire pilot, a Far East dive-bomber pilot, and a pilot who went on after the war to fly airliners and was hijacked. A few of the contributors have since passed away. I read a great RAF book years ago that was all short accounts like that. Marvellous.
Thanks for posting that. I usually avoid pprune but it seems that it’s got some good bits.
https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/329990-ga...
Yertis said:
BryanC said:
Just going to pop over to France, stooge around, shot up a train or two and back home for tea and a wad !
Great plane - me at Hendon a few years back.
I'm such a fan, I bought two Band Dessinee comic books ( vol 1 and 2 ) while in France last year called Typhoon with outstanding illustrations by the author,Christophe Gibelin
..
Went off to amazon.fr and... thanks a bunch for that – another drain on my income... Great plane - me at Hendon a few years back.
I'm such a fan, I bought two Band Dessinee comic books ( vol 1 and 2 ) while in France last year called Typhoon with outstanding illustrations by the author,Christophe Gibelin
..
If I'd had access to that lot when I was a kid I'd be fluent in French by now, or at least French as spoken in aerial combat.
And
Le dagga-dagga-dagga-dagga
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff