start sailing advice
Discussion
hi all
I have 3 kids (12, 8 and 5) and they are busy on Saturdays (football and cycling) but we are frequently left looking for something to do on a Sunday. Thire fairly wide age spread means it can be difficult to get them to agree to doing activities, which often ends up in too much ipad time!
I have been researching sailing as something that we could do together. I would hope that all my kids would enjoy and get something out of an afternoon sailing?
We live just outside Cardiff, so have easy access to the Bay.
My plan would be to do the RYA sailing course myself to learn the basics first, then join a club (£240 family membership) and buy a larger dhingy like a Wayfarer (£2k ish?) to start us off. Storage £115. Kids could do the courses too.
The costs of this dont seem too bad actually, especially assuming the boat wouldnt lose much value, unless i am missing something? Upgrade itus?
any thoughts please?
thanks in advance
I have 3 kids (12, 8 and 5) and they are busy on Saturdays (football and cycling) but we are frequently left looking for something to do on a Sunday. Thire fairly wide age spread means it can be difficult to get them to agree to doing activities, which often ends up in too much ipad time!
I have been researching sailing as something that we could do together. I would hope that all my kids would enjoy and get something out of an afternoon sailing?
We live just outside Cardiff, so have easy access to the Bay.
My plan would be to do the RYA sailing course myself to learn the basics first, then join a club (£240 family membership) and buy a larger dhingy like a Wayfarer (£2k ish?) to start us off. Storage £115. Kids could do the courses too.
The costs of this dont seem too bad actually, especially assuming the boat wouldnt lose much value, unless i am missing something? Upgrade itus?
any thoughts please?
thanks in advance
Seems like a decent idea to me, presumably worth asking the kids if they're interested though. If you've no experience sailing then doing an RYA course would definitely be a good idea before heading out by yourself. I think dinghy sailing is fairly intuitive, shouldn't take long to get the hang of the basics.
As for the boat, for me dinghy sailing is most fun when it's windy and you're regularly tipping it upside down. Wayfarers are big heavy tubs that, apart from the Mk4 and Wayfarer World, are not self draining so are a bit of a faff to right and drain after capsizing. I would very much like a Mk4 myself but I would suggest before you buy one that you try capsizing and righting it yourself to see what you make of the experience, size, weight and strength do come in handy on a boat that size.
There are quite a few other boat options you could consider:
Edit to add: Cost wise the main thing to bear in mind is wear and breaking stuff. A full set of brand new wayfarer sails could set you back a grand or so, other bits can add up. On the whole though I think it's a fairly accessible hobby price-wise, just don't be too precious about brand new or perfect boats and rigging and you can keep things sensible. Insurance is very cheap.
As for the boat, for me dinghy sailing is most fun when it's windy and you're regularly tipping it upside down. Wayfarers are big heavy tubs that, apart from the Mk4 and Wayfarer World, are not self draining so are a bit of a faff to right and drain after capsizing. I would very much like a Mk4 myself but I would suggest before you buy one that you try capsizing and righting it yourself to see what you make of the experience, size, weight and strength do come in handy on a boat that size.
There are quite a few other boat options you could consider:
- Laser Bahia/2000/Stratos
- Albacore
- Enterprise
- RS vision (doesn't get great reviews though)
- RS Quest
Edit to add: Cost wise the main thing to bear in mind is wear and breaking stuff. A full set of brand new wayfarer sails could set you back a grand or so, other bits can add up. On the whole though I think it's a fairly accessible hobby price-wise, just don't be too precious about brand new or perfect boats and rigging and you can keep things sensible. Insurance is very cheap.
Edited by TurboHatchback on Thursday 13th July 13:35
It's definitely worth trying. It's dead easy and a nice skill to have. A bit like riding a bike, once you get the feel for it, you never forget how it all works. The principles are identical on a yacht so you'd have no difficulty crewing on one if the opportunity arose.
I'd assume most clubs would have boats you can use, so I wouldn't be putting a shopping list together just yet. I sailed a few wayfarers about a hundred years ago. From what I remember they were good, solid, simple, idiot-proof dinghies and probably just about big enough to pack your brood into in one go if it isn't blowing a gale. They were/are(?) the sort of thing you can rent as a tourist from places in the Lakes or on reservoirs because of those very characteristics, and good fun they are too. If you get into the hobby and start getting involved in club races you might want something a bit more sporty.
I'd assume most clubs would have boats you can use, so I wouldn't be putting a shopping list together just yet. I sailed a few wayfarers about a hundred years ago. From what I remember they were good, solid, simple, idiot-proof dinghies and probably just about big enough to pack your brood into in one go if it isn't blowing a gale. They were/are(?) the sort of thing you can rent as a tourist from places in the Lakes or on reservoirs because of those very characteristics, and good fun they are too. If you get into the hobby and start getting involved in club races you might want something a bit more sporty.
I'd argue that starting with dinghy sailing is absolutely the best plan. Unless you positively enjoy being dumped into the oggin, no accounting for tastes, then you really do learn about getting the feel for the wind strength and direction, effects of trim, getting a good balance, that whilst being overpowered feels exciting it isn't fast. That stands in very good stead if moving up into bigger boats.
You should have a good RYA club nearby who should have a taster session this summer: http://www.rya.org.uk/get-afloat/try-sailing/Pages...
If that clicks then I would recommend doing the adult course separately in addition to doing anything else with the kids and boats.
If that doesn't click what about climbing? Or a martial art?
If that clicks then I would recommend doing the adult course separately in addition to doing anything else with the kids and boats.
If that doesn't click what about climbing? Or a martial art?
Great, sounds like I am on the right lines.
I think longer term plan would be to swap wayfarer type boat for something like a lazer pico for single sailing/racing (or sell it) and get a slightly larger day sail cruiser that I would moor.
Something about 20ft, like a Hunter 20, ideally with a large cockpit for family to sit out on. Wouldnt be sleeping on it.
A swing mooring isnt as expensive as i thought.
I think longer term plan would be to swap wayfarer type boat for something like a lazer pico for single sailing/racing (or sell it) and get a slightly larger day sail cruiser that I would moor.
Something about 20ft, like a Hunter 20, ideally with a large cockpit for family to sit out on. Wouldnt be sleeping on it.
A swing mooring isnt as expensive as i thought.
Sounds like you've got a good idea but be carefull with teaching your children The "Method" for adult teaching to Level 2 is very different from how an instructor teaches children to Stage 2.
For both grades the overall criteria of success is that the student is able to arrive at a club, rig, launch, sail triangular course, beach, derig and leave club without assistance.
Usually it take an adult with no previous experience 3/4 days and children 4/5 days to get to the standard.
Hold off even thinking what boats to buy at this stage, see what's available.
Personally I'd never recommend anyone buys a Pico, ever!
For both grades the overall criteria of success is that the student is able to arrive at a club, rig, launch, sail triangular course, beach, derig and leave club without assistance.
Usually it take an adult with no previous experience 3/4 days and children 4/5 days to get to the standard.
Hold off even thinking what boats to buy at this stage, see what's available.
Personally I'd never recommend anyone buys a Pico, ever!
I used to teach kids and adults to sail.
My suggestion would be to find your nearest sailing club - they will run adult and kids courses and you don't need any equipment to start with.
Bear in mind that dinghy's raison d'etre is to race. Just pootling about aimlessly in a dinghy rapidly gets old, and you don't learn much either. One year of racing equates to ten years of cruising, in terms of knowledge gained. You can then apply that knowledge to cruising, or to sailing or racing yachts.
My other suggestion would be to learn in single-handers. Kids in Opimists or Toppers depending on their size, and you in something like a Laser. Again, this accelerates the learning, and the kids will have fun racing you.
Later on you can get the Wayfarer or similar, although your kids if they get the bug might want something faster like a Hobie catamaran.
The optimist / laser route is how Sir Ben Ainslie started - you never know you might have some future champions on your hands.
My suggestion would be to find your nearest sailing club - they will run adult and kids courses and you don't need any equipment to start with.
Bear in mind that dinghy's raison d'etre is to race. Just pootling about aimlessly in a dinghy rapidly gets old, and you don't learn much either. One year of racing equates to ten years of cruising, in terms of knowledge gained. You can then apply that knowledge to cruising, or to sailing or racing yachts.
My other suggestion would be to learn in single-handers. Kids in Opimists or Toppers depending on their size, and you in something like a Laser. Again, this accelerates the learning, and the kids will have fun racing you.
Later on you can get the Wayfarer or similar, although your kids if they get the bug might want something faster like a Hobie catamaran.
The optimist / laser route is how Sir Ben Ainslie started - you never know you might have some future champions on your hands.
To further the good advice above, investigate if the local sailing club has a cadets section, that will be the kids sorted, especially if club boats are available. Find out what classes sail at the club before you buy a boat, Lasers are everywhere and although usually quite competitive they can be welcoming to beginners. The other alternative is to volunteer to crew, going out regularly with a more experienced sailor is the best way to progress, just be honest about your experience (ie none).
Can you afford/have you got the time to take the family away for a dingy sailing holiday? A week would be enough to get a feel if this is something you want to do long term.
Can you afford/have you got the time to take the family away for a dingy sailing holiday? A week would be enough to get a feel if this is something you want to do long term.
Sailing is great fun for kids, and something they can all participate in at different ages
All RYA clubs will run some kind of relatively cheap kids lessons - Cygnets / Cadets or some other such name - no need for you to buy a boat yet, let them enjoy sailing by themselves in club boats - Toppers, Feva's etc. You can learn in a clubs family type boat - Bahia / Wayfarer or whatever they have.
Ref your own boat, the comment about racing in dinghy's is interesting, a friend of mine made a similar comment "you have to race dinghy's to make them interesting.." however I sail a catamaran, and even boats for beginners are fast enough to make pure blasting about great fun - a Dart 16 is a great boat for a family, in your budget, stable, but fast enough for kids to get a thrill, and so I would include these in your thoughts
All RYA clubs will run some kind of relatively cheap kids lessons - Cygnets / Cadets or some other such name - no need for you to buy a boat yet, let them enjoy sailing by themselves in club boats - Toppers, Feva's etc. You can learn in a clubs family type boat - Bahia / Wayfarer or whatever they have.
Ref your own boat, the comment about racing in dinghy's is interesting, a friend of mine made a similar comment "you have to race dinghy's to make them interesting.." however I sail a catamaran, and even boats for beginners are fast enough to make pure blasting about great fun - a Dart 16 is a great boat for a family, in your budget, stable, but fast enough for kids to get a thrill, and so I would include these in your thoughts
I think the point about racing is a fair one in terms of sailors development, my rationale is always;
When you're free-sailing if you pick a point to sail towards close hauled and there's a windshift or it's in the NGZ or you simply don't get your sail setting right most people with pick a different point to sail toward.
Whereas if you've joined in the racing an experienced sailor will say "I want you to sail from a to b to c to d to e to f" so the sailor has no opportunity to make their sailing easier they have to sail the course set which more often than not it will have all points of sail on it plus hopefully you will be sailing the same course as others so you're able to judge your performance.
When you're free-sailing if you pick a point to sail towards close hauled and there's a windshift or it's in the NGZ or you simply don't get your sail setting right most people with pick a different point to sail toward.
Whereas if you've joined in the racing an experienced sailor will say "I want you to sail from a to b to c to d to e to f" so the sailor has no opportunity to make their sailing easier they have to sail the course set which more often than not it will have all points of sail on it plus hopefully you will be sailing the same course as others so you're able to judge your performance.
Marcellus said:
I think the point about racing is a fair one in terms of sailors development, my rationale is always;
When you're free-sailing if you pick a point to sail towards close hauled and there's a windshift or it's in the NGZ or you simply don't get your sail setting right most people with pick a different point to sail toward.
Whereas if you've joined in the racing an experienced sailor will say "I want you to sail from a to b to c to d to e to f" so the sailor has no opportunity to make their sailing easier they have to sail the course set which more often than not it will have all points of sail on it plus hopefully you will be sailing the same course as others so you're able to judge your performance.
Not disagreeing that racing is an excellent way to hone your sailing skills - forcing you to sail a set course, as you say, and also measuring your performance against other sailors, however I think it potentially puts people off who have not even started sailing when you mention racing - it makes it seem like the only goalWhen you're free-sailing if you pick a point to sail towards close hauled and there's a windshift or it's in the NGZ or you simply don't get your sail setting right most people with pick a different point to sail toward.
Whereas if you've joined in the racing an experienced sailor will say "I want you to sail from a to b to c to d to e to f" so the sailor has no opportunity to make their sailing easier they have to sail the course set which more often than not it will have all points of sail on it plus hopefully you will be sailing the same course as others so you're able to judge your performance.
Burrow01 said:
Not disagreeing that racing is an excellent way to hone your sailing skills - forcing you to sail a set course, as you say, and also measuring your performance against other sailors, however I think it potentially puts people off who have not even started sailing when you mention racing - it makes it seem like the only goal
Done the right way it's more inclusive and developmental than "the only goal".On the other side research (RYA) shows that a newbie who joins in with race is more likely to stay with the sport.
Racing makes a sailor technically more adept in the five essentials, sail trim, and putting into practice the 'when boats meet' rules. It is also a great deal of fun. Doesn't have to be taken too seriously and all levels of ability can take part.
Without the racing experience, a dinghy sailor could spend his life with the centre board always down, the sails badly trimmed, the rudder jammed over at every turn, the transom dragging, and he wouldn't know why the boat wasn't responding very well.
Without the racing experience, a dinghy sailor could spend his life with the centre board always down, the sails badly trimmed, the rudder jammed over at every turn, the transom dragging, and he wouldn't know why the boat wasn't responding very well.
Without wishing to derail the thread, I understand the benefit of racing in developing as a sailor.
My comments were:
* Immediately starting to talk about racing with someone who does not have a boat yet can be off putting
* Faster boats are actually more fun for just blasting around on than smaller dinghy's and so a catamaran is worth considering on this basis
In the end OP, its all great fun, so go out and get started :-)
My comments were:
* Immediately starting to talk about racing with someone who does not have a boat yet can be off putting
* Faster boats are actually more fun for just blasting around on than smaller dinghy's and so a catamaran is worth considering on this basis
In the end OP, its all great fun, so go out and get started :-)
I disagree that racing is all dinghies are for, I prefer cruising and generally messing around. Ad hoc racing with friends and family is a good laugh but I can't be bothered with timing and calculating handicaps or worrying about whether every rope is class legal and that sort of guff. Besides, all the sailing clubs round here seem to give up and retire to the bar when it gets windy enough to be exciting, it's just me and my brother left out there blasting around (and some windsurfers).
With some imagination there's all sorts of ways to amuse yourself on more gentle days, going on voyages to destinations, boarding other boats on the move, towing people around, cleating off the mainsheet and climbing the mast whilst underway, chasing each other around and playing boat tag etc.
With some imagination there's all sorts of ways to amuse yourself on more gentle days, going on voyages to destinations, boarding other boats on the move, towing people around, cleating off the mainsheet and climbing the mast whilst underway, chasing each other around and playing boat tag etc.
I got up to RYA Level 3 when i was about 17 but sadly I didn't follow on with it through university etc, and the small bought that my parents bought from my aunt and uncle was sold off as we weren't using it at all very often.
I did my first RYA course when I was about 13, and my mum did it as well in the adults group, and it was good fun, and then I used to do it with the CCF at school as well which is when I got to level 3.
It is definitely something I'd be looking to do once my (as yet in the womb) child/children are old enough!
I did my first RYA course when I was about 13, and my mum did it as well in the adults group, and it was good fun, and then I used to do it with the CCF at school as well which is when I got to level 3.
It is definitely something I'd be looking to do once my (as yet in the womb) child/children are old enough!
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