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What to buy instead of a typhoon?

What to buy instead of a typhoon?

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Discussion

saaby93

Original Poster:

20,759 posts

102 months

Tuesday 10th October
quotequote all
Neonblau said:
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the Hunter yet. smile
Doesnt it have a much greater rate of turn wink

El stovey

21,180 posts

187 months

Tuesday 10th October
quotequote all
Ian Lancs said:
El stovey said:
After the cancellation of the BAe replica, is this the UKs last manned fighter aircraft?

Hopefully Joint Anglo french drone programmes derived from Taranis might keep the industry alive,
Replica was a technology demonstrator for low observable airframes for what was the BAe McDonald Douglas entry to what we now now as JSF / F-35 - it was never going to fly.

Bit like EAP was a technology demonstrator for what turned up as Typhoon. Which also showed how politics has a real influence industrial & international partnerships.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Replica

“According to reports, the Replica project is known to have been worked on from 1994 to 1999. It is widely believed that Replica may have been once intended to replace the RAF's Panavia Tornado fleet from 2017 onwards. Experience and data acquired through the program was later rolled into the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program, while technologies from Replica have reportedly played a role in the development of other aircraft, including unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV)s.[1][2]”

I thought it was also but i don’t have any firsthand experience of it tbh.

mebe

189 posts

67 months

Tuesday 10th October
quotequote all
Far too much credence being given to random price estimates. Follow any of the F35 threads and you'll realise that nobody can agree a standard pricing model and pretty much any and all prices are incomparable (spares, support, training amongst other things affect the price massively). This is why governments can't work it out.

Dr Jekyll

13,360 posts

185 months

Tuesday 10th October
quotequote all
mebe said:
Far too much credence being given to random price estimates. Follow any of the F35 threads and you'll realise that nobody can agree a standard pricing model and pretty much any and all prices are incomparable (spares, support, training amongst other things affect the price massively). This is why governments can't work it out.
+1

It's very tempting for journos/politicians to look at raw figures and say 'A costs 50% more than B to buy and is only 10% more capable'. But once you've taken into account fuel ammo salaries and training for say a 30 year service life the higher sticker price is not such an issue. Also 10% less range or weapon load may translate into 100% less capable for a particular job.

IanH755

753 posts

44 months

Wednesday 11th October
quotequote all
Dr Jekyll said:
Also 10% less range or weapon load may translate into 100% less capable for a particular job.
Yeap, once Typhoon gets RapTOR, StormShadow and Brimstone integrated it'll have a unique range of capabilities that would be the envy of most western nations and something the Gripen and F-16 can't compete with! Shame it's way too late to make a difference.
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AlexIT

601 posts

62 months

Wednesday 11th October
quotequote all
IanH755 said:
Yeap, once Typhoon gets RapTOR, StormShadow and Brimstone integrated it'll have a unique range of capabilities that would be the envy of most western nations and something the Gripen and F-16 can't compete with! Shame it's way too late to make a difference.
I don't understand, why do you think it will be too late?
The F-16 is now over 40 years old, but seems to be still going strong and I imagine, we'll keep seeing them around for some more time.

The Typhoon has made its maiden flight in 1998 IIRC, so compared to the F-16 is at 50% of its potential life, why shouldn't it appeal further customers?

Am I missing something obvious?

El stovey

21,180 posts

187 months

Wednesday 11th October
quotequote all
AlexIT said:
IanH755 said:
Yeap, once Typhoon gets RapTOR, StormShadow and Brimstone integrated it'll have a unique range of capabilities that would be the envy of most western nations and something the Gripen and F-16 can't compete with! Shame it's way too late to make a difference.
I don't understand, why do you think it will be too late?
The F-16 is now over 40 years old, but seems to be still going strong and I imagine, we'll keep seeing them around for some more time.

The Typhoon has made its maiden flight in 1998 IIRC, so compared to the F-16 is at 50% of its potential life, why shouldn't it appeal further customers?

Am I missing something obvious?
I expect it’s that many potential buyers looking at replacing older aircraft with the typhoon have already bought F35s (Denmark Japan Norway s Korea turkey) )or Rafales (India Switzerland Qatar)

The reasons will vary but some want stealth characteristics of the F35 whilst others want the cost of the Rafale.

shouldbworking

4,163 posts

136 months

Wednesday 11th October
quotequote all
AlexIT said:
I don't understand, why do you think it will be too late?
The F-16 is now over 40 years old, but seems to be still going strong and I imagine, we'll keep seeing them around for some more time.

The Typhoon has made its maiden flight in 1998 IIRC, so compared to the F-16 is at 50% of its potential life, why shouldn't it appeal further customers?

Am I missing something obvious?
The cost! quoted from https://defenseissues.net/2013/10/05/modern-aircra...

F16c flyaway cost - 70 million USD
Typhoon flyaway cost - 138 million USD

Sylvaforever

2,212 posts

22 months

Wednesday 11th October
quotequote all
Raptor is a standalone system for Tornado, it will never be available for typhoon as it won't physically fit and electronically integrate with typhoon operating systems.
Those who decry Tornado ( usually those who favour the F35 I have noticed) are quick to point out a targeting pod apparently does exactly the same thing on typhoon, which is a barefaced lie as even ignoring the Raptor pods range and definition advantage are ignoring the uplink capability.

Oh well another capability gap never to be filled.

AlexIT

601 posts

62 months

Wednesday 11th October
quotequote all
shouldbworking said:
AlexIT said:
I don't understand, why do you think it will be too late?
The F-16 is now over 40 years old, but seems to be still going strong and I imagine, we'll keep seeing them around for some more time.

The Typhoon has made its maiden flight in 1998 IIRC, so compared to the F-16 is at 50% of its potential life, why shouldn't it appeal further customers?

Am I missing something obvious?
The cost! quoted from https://defenseissues.net/2013/10/05/modern-aircra...

F16c flyaway cost - 70 million USD
Typhoon flyaway cost - 138 million USD
But once the F-35 will be available, will Lockheed still push the F-16?
If not, the comparison my then become more favourable for the Typhoon.

I know we're in the realm of pure speculation...

Sylvaforever

2,212 posts

22 months

Wednesday 11th October
quotequote all
shouldbworking said:
The cost! quoted from https://defenseissues.net/2013/10/05/modern-aircra...

F16c flyaway cost - 70 million USD
Typhoon flyaway cost - 138 million USD
What version is that typhoon?

May I also point put that Bae have also made the carriers @6.2 billion along with the disfunctional air defence destroyer fleet @6.2 billion and of course their hope for a very profitable future, the F35 tier one partnership, the f35 which has less overall capability but the ticket price of 130 million.. sterling.

And one engine...

Al Murphy

247 posts

83 months

Wednesday 11th October
quotequote all
Sylvaforever said:
May I also point put that Bae have also made the carriers @6.2 billion along with the disfunctional air defence destroyer fleet @6.2 billion and of course their hope for a very profitable future, the F35 tier one partnership, the f35 which has less overall capability but the ticket price of 130 million.. sterling.

And one engine...
You may point it out, but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make?

Al

Ian Lancs

869 posts

90 months

Wednesday 11th October
quotequote all
Sylvaforever said:
Raptor is a standalone system for Tornado, it will never be available for typhoon as it won't physically fit and electronically integrate with typhoon operating systems.
Those who decry Tornado ( usually those who favour the F35 I have noticed) are quick to point out a targeting pod apparently does exactly the same thing on typhoon, which is a barefaced lie as even ignoring the Raptor pods range and definition advantage are ignoring the uplink capability.

Oh well another capability gap never to be filled.
Minor point of order. RAPTOR could be integrated with Typhoon in terms of avionics - it's the same wires as Tornado. It won't fit though as you point out. However, the brains inside it (DB110 optics etc) could be repackaged if the desire was there (which it currently isn't)



Sylvaforever

2,212 posts

22 months

Wednesday 11th October
quotequote all
"It's just the same wires"

Uhuh. Really. If it were, how would it interface with the displays and controls then?

Magik??

BTW, why do you think its the size it is ??

I think typhoon is a fantastic aircraft one that had given the RAF back performance and is a winner AtoA esp with Meteor etc
But for strike it's a retrograde step backward with a single crew.



Edited by Sylvaforever on Wednesday 11th October 23:41

williamp

15,676 posts

197 months

Wednesday 11th October
quotequote all
IanH755 said:
kurt535 said:
half the firkin price. lordy. i never knew it was that much cheaper. im no mil pilot but can anyone tell me if the gripen is half the aeroplane of the typhoon in terms of performance?
While it is "less capable" than the latest tranche Typhoon, due to less fuel, less weapons & inferior avionics suite, it's not "less capable" by much and nowhere near as much as the price difference would lead people to think, especially when the handling/performance is fairly similar. My current job role supports both Gripen and Typhoon for multiple items (helmets and various other avionics) so I get to speak to end users daily.

Sadly, by the time Tranche 2 block 15 comes around, giving it a full individual ground attack capability and making it a phenomenal multi-role aircraft, one of the best in the world, it'll be too late for new bids.

Edited by IanH755 on Tuesday 10th October 12:13
This might be an impossible question to answer, but on that basis, is it better to have fewer of a more capable aircfraft, or more of a slightly inferior one? (Me? I'd go F/A18 myself, but then I'm a weirdo who loved the Tornado F3...)

Ian Lancs

869 posts

90 months

Thursday 12th October
quotequote all
Sylvaforever said:
"It's just the same wires"

Uhuh. Really. If it were, how would it interface with the displays and controls then?

Magik??

BTW, why do you think its the size it is ??

I think typhoon is a fantastic aircraft one that had given the RAF back performance and is a winner AtoA esp with Meteor etc
But for strike it's a retrograde step backward with a single crew.



Edited by Sylvaforever on Wednesday 11th October 23:41
SAme as you integrate pretty much any new pod / weapon - they're designed to use common interfaces (in this case at stage 2 it's Mil-STD-1760).

I know why it's the size it is - I spent a few years integrating this particular pod in a previous life. I'll concede repackaging isn't an option - theres not enough room between gear doors to hang it, and you'd def not want something that big asymmetric on the wing.

mybrainhurts

88,927 posts

179 months

Thursday 12th October
quotequote all
Shakermaker said:
If it is too expensive should maybe they not come up with a lower-cost Chinese version? The ChinoFighter Strong Wind perhaps?
I briefly met a Chinese fighter with strong wind...

Stank like a skunk most of the time...hehe