Two killed at a crossing near Horsham
Discussion
When you produced a drawing for the police, did it occur you that the “disrespectful” guy with the iPhone might have been doing something useful by taking immediate pics of the scene? I had somebody confront me in a similar manner when I took pics at a motor accident scene (I was on my way home from a wedding and had a DSLR on the passenger seat) - I pointed out that if the driver who had caused the accident by driving on the wrong side of the road decided to leave before the police turned up, they (the other party whose car was destroyed) might be grateful for the evidence I obtained. The police then asked for my pictures as cars had been moved between my photos and their arrival. Just saying - taking a few pics isn’t necessarily “ghoulish”.
theboss said:
When you produced a drawing for the police, did it occur you that the “disrespectful” guy with the iPhone might have been doing something useful by taking immediate pics of the scene? I had somebody confront me in a similar manner when I took pics at a motor accident scene (I was on my way home from a wedding and had a DSLR on the passenger seat) - I pointed out that if the driver who had caused the accident by driving on the wrong side of the road decided to leave before the police turned up, they (the other party whose car was destroyed) might be grateful for the evidence I obtained. The police then asked for my pictures as cars had been moved between my photos and their arrival. Just saying - taking a few pics isn’t necessarily “ghoulish”.
To be honest I had a multitude of thoughts running through my mind, I was simply writing as it happened, he may well have evidence of interest.At the time I was simply thinking of respect for the dead.
If I’m wrong, I’m sorry.
saaby93 said:
On the beeb
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-430973...
Both barriers are down in the pic
Assuming theres nothing about the barrieres going up by mistake is there a history of people having to wait ages for a second train to come through?
On a level crossing near me, the barriers come down a long time before a train appears, and if there's a second train on the way you could be waiting for up to five minutes. The crossing is about three-quarters of a mile from a station which may account for the delay, depending on where the trigger is.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-430973...
Both barriers are down in the pic
Assuming theres nothing about the barrieres going up by mistake is there a history of people having to wait ages for a second train to come through?
That crossing has full barriers, but they come down in a staggered pattern so that you can't get trapped between them, unless you're going really slowly. It beggars belief that they still have half-barriers on level crossings these days; although they were never a good idea in the first place. Even when they were first introduced, the public information films on the telly were having to warn people not to zig-zag round them.
Robertj21a said:
I thought one of the advantages of half barriers in unmanned locations was that you couldn't get trapped. Like everything, they should be fine as long as everybody keeps to the rules.
There was a post a while back in a similar thread, specifying the min and max times the barriers should come down to avoid people getting into, 'these things are stuck again' and going around them
We dont know what happened here yet, but they were trying to get to a football match, and apparently barriers had been down for two trains when the third came through
saaby93 said:
There was a post a while back in a similar thread, specifying the min and max times the barriers should come down to avoid people getting into, 'these things are stuck again' and going around them
We dont know what happened here yet, but they were trying to get to a football match, and apparently barriers had been down for two trains when the third came through
The southbound train that hit the car was 300m down the line, there was a northbound train travelling in the opposite direction parked at the crossing.
Therefore in my tiny mind the following happened:
Gates go down, a train traveling south goes through the crossing.
Few minutes wait........
Man in car thinks nothing is happening and decides to go around gates because he got time to do so and car is hit by second train going south
Train coming north at approximately the same time (within 30 seconds) sees accident or aftermath and stops by crossing.
I therefore see train going south 300m away, train going north by the crossing.
Very sad
Edited by HoHoHo on Thursday 22 February 21:00
Edited by HoHoHo on Thursday 22 February 21:12
HoHoHo said:
saaby93 said:
There was a post a while back in a similar thread, specifying the min and max times the barriers should come down to avoid people getting into, 'these things are stuck again' and going around them
We dont know what happened here yet, but they were trying to get to a football match, and apparently barriers had been down for two trains when the third came through
The southbound train that hit the car was 300m down the line, there was a northbound train travelling in the opposite direction parked at the crossing.
Therefore in my tiny mind the following happened:
Gates go down, a train traveling south goes through the crossing.
Few minutes wait........
Man in car thinks nothing is happening and decides to go around gates because he got time to do so and car is hit by second train going south
Train coming north at approximately the same time (within 30 seconds) sees accident or aftermath and stops by crossing.
I therefore see train going south 300m away, train going north by the crossing.
Very sad
That fits better
If there was a few minutes wait - thats longer than the rules previously posted, but we know it happens
Very sad
saaby93 said:
Thanks Hohoho
That fits better
If there was a few minutes wait - thats longer than the rules previously posted, but we know it happens
Very sad
Clearly we don’t know exactly what happened however I have been questioned by the police about something that may have happened.That fits better
If there was a few minutes wait - thats longer than the rules previously posted, but we know it happens
Very sad
I don’t want to say any more currently because it may not be relevant but I’m totally confused.
Still can’t get the sight out of my mind.
Still feel so sad and guilty I couldn’t do more but at the time I didn’t think I could.
Halmyre said:
On a level crossing near me, the barriers come down a long time before a train appears, and if there's a second train on the way you could be waiting for up to five minutes. The crossing is about three-quarters of a mile from a station which may account for the delay, depending on where the trigger is.
That crossing has full barriers, but they come down in a staggered pattern so that you can't get trapped between them, unless you're going really slowly. It beggars belief that they still have half-barriers on level crossings these days; although they were never a good idea in the first place. Even when they were first introduced, the public information films on the telly were having to warn people not to zig-zag round them.
Crossings with full barriers (MCB) have a method of control which will prevent vehicles getting caught on the crossing with barriers down. These are by local control (crossing keeper with line of sight), CCTV (to local box or area signalling centre/ROC) or OD (Obstacle Detection, using LIDAR to prove the crossing is clear). The train will not receive a green aspect to proceed unless the barriers are down and crossing is cleared.That crossing has full barriers, but they come down in a staggered pattern so that you can't get trapped between them, unless you're going really slowly. It beggars belief that they still have half-barriers on level crossings these days; although they were never a good idea in the first place. Even when they were first introduced, the public information films on the telly were having to warn people not to zig-zag round them.
Crossings such as the one at Horsham are AHB Auto Half Barriers. There is no method of proving the crossing as clear such as with MCB. An approaching train will "strike in" to the section and this starts an automated procedure - the lights (RTL's) will flash and klaxon sounds, then the half barriers lower. The timings for this procedure are set by certain standards that take into account the line speed and the distance of the strike in point from the crossing. Any vehicles caught on the crossing will be able to drive on the wrong side of the road to escape the crossing.
What people fail to realise is that the signalling sections in rural areas can be miles long, so the strike in point may be some distance away and therefore the train takes some time to reach the crossing. LX's are subject to a process that the barriers will only raise IF there is sufficient time to fit another closure cycle PLUS a set duration, if there is another second (or third etc) train coming. Crossings often have signs noting "If lights continue to flash, another train coming" or similar to warn the public.
AHB's work perfectly if people follow the system, unfortunately real life means people are willing to take unacceptable risks. Network Rail have had a huge push in the last 5 years to risk assess, and close/renew/upgrade as many LX as possible. However there is a finite amount of money and the priority order is driven by the risk assessment. The Horsham crossing may have such a low usage rate and be deemed technically low risk, that it has not been considered for renewal in recent times.
Decades over under investment in the railway have left the whole network creaking at the seams,
so you would be correct in thinking AHB's are not ideal in this modern world, but then again so is half of the stuff on the railway.
Level crossings involve a surprising amount of work, not just on the signalling side but civils, track, power, telecomms, plus the necessary planning and consultation. They're complex and it's costly to achieve on the face of it what appears to be relatively straight forward.
sparks85 said:
Crossings with full barriers (MCB) have a method of control which will prevent vehicles getting caught on the crossing with barriers down. These are by local control (crossing keeper with line of sight), CCTV (to local box or area signalling centre/ROC) or OD (Obstacle Detection, using LIDAR to prove the crossing is clear). The train will not receive a green aspect to proceed unless the barriers are down and crossing is cleared.
Crossings such as the one at Horsham are AHB Auto Half Barriers. There is no method of proving the crossing as clear such as with MCB. An approaching train will "strike in" to the section and this starts an automated procedure - the lights (RTL's) will flash and klaxon sounds, then the half barriers lower. The timings for this procedure are set by certain standards that take into account the line speed and the distance of the strike in point from the crossing. Any vehicles caught on the crossing will be able to drive on the wrong side of the road to escape the crossing.
What people fail to realise is that the signalling sections in rural areas can be miles long, so the strike in point may be some distance away and therefore the train takes some time to reach the crossing. LX's are subject to a process that the barriers will only raise IF there is sufficient time to fit another closure cycle PLUS a set duration, if there is another second (or third etc) train coming. Crossings often have signs noting "If lights continue to flash, another train coming" or similar to warn the public.
AHB's work perfectly if people follow the system, unfortunately real life means people are willing to take unacceptable risks. Network Rail have had a huge push in the last 5 years to risk assess, and close/renew/upgrade as many LX as possible. However there is a finite amount of money and the priority order is driven by the risk assessment. The Horsham crossing may have such a low usage rate and be deemed technically low risk, that it has not been considered for renewal in recent times.
Decades over under investment in the railway have left the whole network creaking at the seams,
so you would be correct in thinking AHB's are not ideal in this modern world, but then again so is half of the stuff on the railway.
Level crossings involve a surprising amount of work, not just on the signalling side but civils, track, power, telecomms, plus the necessary planning and consultation. They're complex and it's costly to achieve on the face of it what appears to be relatively straight forward.
From the previous thread on this, if it's what happened, it's time the system was upgraded to work out the speed of the train, so the barriers can be down for an appropriate time rather than as long as possible just in caseCrossings such as the one at Horsham are AHB Auto Half Barriers. There is no method of proving the crossing as clear such as with MCB. An approaching train will "strike in" to the section and this starts an automated procedure - the lights (RTL's) will flash and klaxon sounds, then the half barriers lower. The timings for this procedure are set by certain standards that take into account the line speed and the distance of the strike in point from the crossing. Any vehicles caught on the crossing will be able to drive on the wrong side of the road to escape the crossing.
What people fail to realise is that the signalling sections in rural areas can be miles long, so the strike in point may be some distance away and therefore the train takes some time to reach the crossing. LX's are subject to a process that the barriers will only raise IF there is sufficient time to fit another closure cycle PLUS a set duration, if there is another second (or third etc) train coming. Crossings often have signs noting "If lights continue to flash, another train coming" or similar to warn the public.
AHB's work perfectly if people follow the system, unfortunately real life means people are willing to take unacceptable risks. Network Rail have had a huge push in the last 5 years to risk assess, and close/renew/upgrade as many LX as possible. However there is a finite amount of money and the priority order is driven by the risk assessment. The Horsham crossing may have such a low usage rate and be deemed technically low risk, that it has not been considered for renewal in recent times.
Decades over under investment in the railway have left the whole network creaking at the seams,
so you would be correct in thinking AHB's are not ideal in this modern world, but then again so is half of the stuff on the railway.
Level crossings involve a surprising amount of work, not just on the signalling side but civils, track, power, telecomms, plus the necessary planning and consultation. They're complex and it's costly to achieve on the face of it what appears to be relatively straight forward.
HoHoHo said:
saaby93 said:
There was a post a while back in a similar thread, specifying the min and max times the barriers should come down to avoid people getting into, 'these things are stuck again' and going around them
We dont know what happened here yet, but they were trying to get to a football match, and apparently barriers had been down for two trains when the third came through
The southbound train that hit the car was 300m down the line, there was a northbound train travelling in the opposite direction parked at the crossing.
Therefore in my tiny mind the following happened:
Gates go down, a train traveling south goes through the crossing.
Few minutes wait........
Man in car thinks nothing is happening and decides to go around gates because he got time to do so and car is hit by second train going south
Train coming north at approximately the same time (within 30 seconds) sees accident or aftermath and stops by crossing.
I therefore see train going south 300m away, train going north by the crossing.
Very sad
Edited by HoHoHo on Thursday 22 February 21:00
Edited by HoHoHo on Thursday 22 February 21:12
The procedure is effectively reversed northbound, so the first train passes this crossing heading north, to stop at Horsham and waits for the other part, which comes across the crossing a few minutes later.
It seems that on Saturday all 4 of these trains were due to go through the crossing close together. At the time of the accident 2, one south, and one north had gone through. The third one through was involved in the accident, and the fourth one was just arriving at the time of the accident which is why it can be seen in the area.
saaby93 said:
From the previous thread on this, if it's what happened, it's time the system was upgraded to work out the speed of the train, so the barriers can be down for an appropriate time rather than as long as possible just in case
The existing system does take into account the maximum linespeed from the strike in point to the crossing, but does not account for any lower running speeds, temp speed restrictions, reduced speed due to weather etc. It is essentially worst case scenario.However I can't begin to explain to you the complexities of what you are suggesting, even though in concept it sounds straight forward. Multiply that by thousands of crossings across the UK...
It would make more sense for the crossing to move to a fail safe detection system like OD to prove the crossing clear.
sparks85 said:
saaby93 said:
From the previous thread on this, if it's what happened, it's time the system was upgraded to work out the speed of the train, so the barriers can be down for an appropriate time rather than as long as possible just in case
The existing system does take into account the maximum linespeed from the strike in point to the crossing, but does not account for any lower running speeds, temp speed restrictions, reduced speed due to weather etc. It is essentially worst case scenario.sparks85 said:
However I can't begin to explain to you the complexities of what you are suggesting, even though in concept it sounds straight forward. Multiply that by thousands of crossings across the UK...
No need. If what's happened here is whats been discussed previously it only happens at a few crossingsYou can have a typical crossing where the lights and barrier go down, within 20-50 seconds the train is through and the barrier is back up again
However a mile down the track with the same number of trains you can have a crossing thats closed for up to 10-15 minutes and people get out their cars and have a chat across the crossing
Why? There's a station within its sensor zone.
Even if the train is parked up with no chance of going through the crossing, the barriers are held down just in case
saaby93 said:
o need. If what's happened here is whats been discussed previously it only happens at a few crossings
You can have a typical crossing where the lights and barrier go down, within 20-50 seconds the train is through and the barrier is back up again
However a mile down the track with the same number of trains you can have a crossing thats closed for up to 10-15 minutes and people get out their cars and have a chat across the crossing
Why? There's a station within its sensor zone.
Even if the train is parked up with no chance of going through the crossing, the barriers are held down just in case
Because the boundary of the track circuit or treadle for strike in is prior to the station, and the system can't discriminate between stopping and non stopping trains.You can have a typical crossing where the lights and barrier go down, within 20-50 seconds the train is through and the barrier is back up again
However a mile down the track with the same number of trains you can have a crossing thats closed for up to 10-15 minutes and people get out their cars and have a chat across the crossing
Why? There's a station within its sensor zone.
Even if the train is parked up with no chance of going through the crossing, the barriers are held down just in case
Lots of things on the railway are not ideal, mainly because the entire system has evolved rather than been designed from a clean sheet of paper. I'm not saying that's right, but trying to explain what's happened and why it's like that to people who might not understand otherwise. And yes they should be upgraded but reality says there is a finite amount of money and resources, and as such a priority in which they need to be addressed.
sparks85 said:
saaby93 said:
No need. If what's happened here is whats been discussed previously it only happens at a few crossings
You can have a typical crossing where the lights and barrier go down, within 20-50 seconds the train is through and the barrier is back up again
However a mile down the track with the same number of trains you can have a crossing thats closed for up to 10-15 minutes and people get out their cars and have a chat across the crossing
Why? There's a station within its sensor zone.
Even if the train is parked up with no chance of going through the crossing, the barriers are held down just in case
Because the boundary of the track circuit or treadle for strike in is prior to the station, and the system can't discriminate between stopping and non stopping trains.You can have a typical crossing where the lights and barrier go down, within 20-50 seconds the train is through and the barrier is back up again
However a mile down the track with the same number of trains you can have a crossing thats closed for up to 10-15 minutes and people get out their cars and have a chat across the crossing
Why? There's a station within its sensor zone.
Even if the train is parked up with no chance of going through the crossing, the barriers are held down just in case
Lots of things on the railway are not ideal, mainly because the entire system has evolved rather than been designed from a clean sheet of paper. I'm not saying that's right, but trying to explain what's happened and why it's like that to people who might not understand otherwise. And yes they should be upgraded but reality says there is a finite amount of money and resources, and as such a priority in which they need to be addressed.
There wont be that many locations, and they'll be pretty well documented. Cost of doing it vs not doing it?
Without saying thats what's happened here
there have been level crossing accidents as long as there have been level crossings, sadly. AHBs are, however, a tragically outdated form of control and really need to be replaced with proper control. Trouble is, CCTV or local control adds a lot of time impact on road users, and many people feel they lose enough of their lives sitting at barriers already .... plus there's the cost of replacement, which no-one is really willing to pick up.
The harsh reality is that AHBs are s
t, hopelessly outmoded and flawed. But they're here to stay for the forseeable. We have a stretch of line where trains pass over a CCTV full barrier crossing controlled by the signalbox and a few hundred yards down the track there's an AHB; you can still see cars driving over it as you approach as you don't hit the treadle till after the first crossing. It's 60mph track... if a train was speeding there, it could beat the treadle and get to the AHB before the gates were down. That's how close it can be. 60mph is comparatively slow, but do the maths of 400 tonnes at 60mph and that's an awful lot of kinetic energy being transferred to whatever you hit
In reference to the OPs feelings of guilt, as has already been said... don't! It's understandable but you really don't need to take that on board. The grandad sadly made the wrong decision and the consequences were massively harsh, but it's not your responsibility to take on his lack of foresight. You could have become part of the problem very easily and not involving yourself was the correct action. Apart form fire and hazards from any RTA lying about, there are conductor rails and electrical supply to be thinking about. The infrastructure crews are well trained in this and you're not. Trust me, you really don't want to be on the sharp end of 750 DC volts because in all likelihood you'll burn a long time before you die. And as for the aftermath of train deaths... well. I've literally had to wade through what was until recently a person. You don't want that memory in your head. If it's of any consolation at all, it's usually fast
as to Joe Public taking photos, we're told to preserve transient evidence in an emergency so that the investigation can draw on it later. He might have just been a morbid fker but actually may have proved some benefit to the subsequent process. Only thing is, don't be taking photos on any phone you want to keep because once the ol' Bill impound it for evidence it might be a couple of years before you see it again!
The harsh reality is that AHBs are s
t, hopelessly outmoded and flawed. But they're here to stay for the forseeable. We have a stretch of line where trains pass over a CCTV full barrier crossing controlled by the signalbox and a few hundred yards down the track there's an AHB; you can still see cars driving over it as you approach as you don't hit the treadle till after the first crossing. It's 60mph track... if a train was speeding there, it could beat the treadle and get to the AHB before the gates were down. That's how close it can be. 60mph is comparatively slow, but do the maths of 400 tonnes at 60mph and that's an awful lot of kinetic energy being transferred to whatever you hitIn reference to the OPs feelings of guilt, as has already been said... don't! It's understandable but you really don't need to take that on board. The grandad sadly made the wrong decision and the consequences were massively harsh, but it's not your responsibility to take on his lack of foresight. You could have become part of the problem very easily and not involving yourself was the correct action. Apart form fire and hazards from any RTA lying about, there are conductor rails and electrical supply to be thinking about. The infrastructure crews are well trained in this and you're not. Trust me, you really don't want to be on the sharp end of 750 DC volts because in all likelihood you'll burn a long time before you die. And as for the aftermath of train deaths... well. I've literally had to wade through what was until recently a person. You don't want that memory in your head. If it's of any consolation at all, it's usually fast
as to Joe Public taking photos, we're told to preserve transient evidence in an emergency so that the investigation can draw on it later. He might have just been a morbid f
ker but actually may have proved some benefit to the subsequent process. Only thing is, don't be taking photos on any phone you want to keep because once the ol' Bill impound it for evidence it might be a couple of years before you see it again!If often wondered why the half barriers are located so close to the crossing? Is that always the case, or just a function of available space? It the respective barriers were set back a few car lengths from the track edge there may be some chance of a vehicle getting clear, rather than being stalled up doing trying to manoeuver around them.
Nik da Greek said:
there have been level crossing accidents as long as there have been level crossings, sadly. AHBs are, however, a tragically outdated form of control and really need to be replaced with proper control. Trouble is, CCTV or local control adds a lot of time impact on road users, and many people feel they lose enough of their lives sitting at barriers already .... plus there's the cost of replacement, which no-one is really willing to pick up.
The harsh reality is that AHBs are st, hopelessly outmoded and flawed.
If anyone doesnt understand the benefits of AHBs see hereThe harsh reality is that AHBs are s
t, hopelessly outmoded and flawed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhfambGtiaM
Luckily they were able to reopen or hold the train before something more serious happened
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff