Two killed at a crossing near Horsham

[Nik da Greek]

saaby93 said:

If anyone doesnt understand the benefits of AHBs see here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhfambGtiaM
Luckily they were able to reopen or hold the train before something more serious happened

The benefit is that it's slightly easier for utter bellends to do fking stupidly dangerous things and not die?

For anyone not understanding the consequences of running level crossings, it's maybe worth pointing out that the maximum penalty is life imprisonment. In my opinion, that's too lenient

[matchmaker]

Nik da Greek said:

saaby93 said:

If anyone doesnt understand the benefits of AHBs see here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhfambGtiaM
Luckily they were able to reopen or hold the train before something more serious happened

The benefit is that it's slightly easier for utter bellends to do fking stupidly dangerous things and not die?

For anyone not understanding the consequences of running level crossings, it's maybe worth pointing out that the maximum penalty is life imprisonment. In my opinion, that's too lenient

The maximum penalty is actually death!

[demic]

saaby93 said:

If anyone doesnt understand the benefits of AHBs see here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhfambGtiaM

Eh? I’m sorry but all that shows is the benefit of having a manned level crossing where a person is able to intervene should the crossing be unsafe for a train to pass.

saaby93 said:

Luckily they were able to reopen or hold the train before something more serious happened

There is no “luckily” about that at all. It was the actions of a professional, skilled, competent person that prevented the situation becoming worse. Shame the same couldn’t be said about the bus driver.

The only benefit of a AHB is purely £££. Every day I see misuse of this type of crossing. They have no place on the Railway in this day and age.

[sparks85]

JuniorD said:

If often wondered why the half barriers are located so close to the crossing? Is that always the case, or just a function of available space? It the respective barriers were set back a few car lengths from the track edge there may be some chance of a vehicle getting clear, rather than being stalled up doing trying to manoeuver around them.

This will be to avoid traffic being able to queue the wrong side of the barriers, and also about siting equipment - the railway boundary does not extend far backwards and if you move the barrier machines, you have to move lots of other elements of the crossing back with it, potentially onto land you do not own - needing planning permission in some cases.

saaby93 said:

Yep its been discussed before. It must be possible to have a sensor in the station showing there's a great big train parked on it that is going to prevent anything else going through.
There wont be that many locations, and they'll be pretty well documented. Cost of doing it vs not doing it?

With the greatest of respect, it's not as simple as that. Firstly, how does that "sensor" determine between stopping and non stopping trains? How does it integrate with the signalling system? How is it powered? You're talking about retrofitting modern equipment to infrastructure that is probably 50 odd years old. Once you touch that you are duty bound to upgrade it. At which point you might as well upgrade the entire thing to a modern equivalent.

To give you a rough idea, a new MCB OD crossing will generally cost between £3m-5m to install, depending on a wide range of factors this number can fluctuate. There are hundreds if not 1000+ AHB's in the UK (not counting any other types of crossing that need either renewal or upgrade). That is on top of all the existing work required to keep the railway running and all the other enhancement works that need to be paid for.

To be clear, I'm not trying to excuse this situation, but rather provide some real world context to an issue that seems to be very straightforward to your armchair expert.

[saaby93]

sparks85 said:

With the greatest of respect, it's not as simple as that. Firstly, how does that "sensor" determine between stopping and non stopping trains? How does it integrate with the signalling system? How is it powered? You're talking about retrofitting modern equipment to infrastructure that is probably 50 odd years old. Once you touch that you are duty bound to upgrade it. At which point you might as well upgrade the entire thing to a modern equivalent.

Thats the man maths excuse for DIY around the house

If I change that light fitting I'll have to go up in the loft, the wiring will need redoing if I touch it, and might as well do the whole house
Let's keep with the old fitting, yeah those wires may look live but they'll be ok

Back to the train/station - would there be a red light near the train that could be used until it pulls out the station?
There'll be a way of fixing this problem but everyones wary of change

[sparks85]

saaby93 said:

;)
Thats the man maths excuse for DIY around the house

If I change that light fitting I'll have to go up in the loft, the wiring will need redoing if I touch it, and might as well do the whole house
Let's keep with the old fitting, yeah those wires may look live but they'll be ok

Back to the train/station - would there be a red light near the train that could be used until it pulls out the station?
There'll be a way of fixing this problem but everyones wary of change

It might sound like man maths, but its part of NR Standards [which are amongst the best in the world for rail safety record]. If you touch a piece of infrastructure that you do not bring up to standard, you must seek a derogation which is a risk assessment against the deviation from the standard. This is just the paperwork side, there is the real life risk of failure that integrating modern and life expired systems carry.

All stations should have a controlling signal at the platform end, but AHB crossings are not interlocked with the signalling system. If you were to try to interlock this the cost and complexity would point towards upgrading the crossing instead of the retro fit you propose.

To give them credit, Network Rail have in the past 5 years had an absolutely massive push on Level Crossing closures/upgrades/renewals. They recognise that the road/rail interface at LX's carries the highest risk to safety on the railway in the modern age.

Should this push have happened many years ago? Yes. But NR is a fairly young organisation and it's predecessor Railtrack was a for-profit entity - this kind of renewal would have been done grudgingly if not at all.

[outnumbered]

I recently read an article (I think by the author of a longer book on the same subject) about this really bad AHB accident: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hixon_rail_crash . It has some very interesting background about the adoption of AHB crossings, and mentions that there was resistance at the time to installing telephones at the crossings. Oddly the resistance came from HM Railways Inspectorate, whereas BR generally wanted telephones installed.

The whole principle of AHB crossings seems to be to put a lot of the burden of safe operation onto the road user, so it's not surprising that there continue to be accidents, given the varied level of competence of road users.

[rs1952]

I think we might be getting too much armchair expertise creeping in here

As would be expected, this subject is generating a good deal of correspondence on railway-related forums. One that I subscribe to not only has someone who used to live in Barns Green and still has family there, but also has a retired signalman who used to cover this section of line. Some of their comments may be worth repeating here:

Man with family in village said:

There's usually a short break between the two pairs of trains due to the section lengths, but not much - so you do get four trains in quick succession. As Paul states, they split/join at Horsham, with (in the down direction) the first portion going fast, followed by the second as a stopper as soon as the first has cleared Christ's Hospital - and the opposite in the up direction with the fast catching up the stopper.

The crossing tends to get more use at this time of year as the road under the bridge (I wouldn't describe it as a main road!) has a tendency to flood. I don't know if that was the case on Saturday though, I suspect not. The road over the crossing has a 30mph speed limit as well.

Only high sided vehicles and a few locals normally use the crossing as it is on a side road and the main road has a low but not too low bridge. It is in the lowest risk category.

Ex signalman said:

This is an automatic half barrier level crossing and as such the barriers are triggered by a combination of track circuits and treadles. The signal system is not interlocked with the barriers. A typical automatic half barrier crossing sequence from the time the amber light is first activated to the time the barriers have been raised after the passing of a train is typically less than 1 minute, and can be as short as 37 seconds. If two trains were passing in opposite directions in the vicinity then the barriers would be down for up to 20 seconds longer, (usually this would only occur if the time between ending one sequence and starting another would be 10 seconds or less).

The incident appears to have happened at about 0845, and the trains that would have been involved were as follows (I have taken the booked passing/ stopping time shown for Christ’s Hospital on Realtime trains and added or subtracted two minutes, so they will be only approximations and seconds will probably be of great importance here:

0736 Victoria – Southampton passing time approx. 0834
0756 Bognor Regis – Victoria passing time approx. 0834
0736 Victoria – Bognor Regis passing time approx. 0838
0713 Southampton – Victoria passing time approx. 0840

The car appears to have been struck by the 0713 Southampton to Victoria, and the 0736 Victoria to Bognor was the one that managed to stop in time.

It is easy to see a scenario where the two 0834 trains passed by, perhaps a minute or two late, with the 0713 from Southampton perhaps running a little early because its last stop was at Barnham, 23 miles away. Granddad sees two trains passing (as he knows often happens) and the barriers stay down so he decides to take a chance, but unbeknown to him there’s another one coming at the line speed of 75mph...

It has also been pointed out on that other forum that all the equipment activity at crossings is electronically logged in real time and sent to the signalling centre responsible, so even though the crash wiped out the lineside cabin that contained the equipment to do that, the important data would already have been sent. This means that if all the equipment was working correctly there may well be no need for a RAIB investigation, and it may just be added to their annual fatality statistics.

To close on a perhaps lighter note, we tend to look at these things individually when they happen and usually try to blame the railway. On the other side of the coin, people are misusing level crossings each and every day, and someone on that forum posted a link to the more lunatic “excuses” that have been tried (I liked number 6 especially):

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/no-m...

Ten worst excuses given to Network Rail level crossing teams by motorists and pedestrians caught breaking the rules at level crossings:
1. I thought the train would slow down to let me through
2. I thought that the train driver was giving way to me when he sounded his horn
3. I know when the trains run around here
4. Lights? No, I don’t bother looking at them, I only stop when the barriers start coming down – I wouldn’t want to damage the car.
5. I’m glad you reminded me to look before crossing I don’t normally bother - mind you I was nearly knocked down by a train a few weeks ago.
6. By a motorist obstructing the yellow box markings: I don’t need the likes of you to tell me about road or level crossing safety, I was a Police driving instructor for 30 years.
7. I didn’t see the gate coming down as I approached the crossing – I was completely blinded by it. I was driving straight into the sun and it was also reflecting very brightly off the surface of the wet road so I could hardly see anything at all. (note Highway Code point 237 below)
8. Sometimes it’s difficult to stop the horse
9. The sat-nav told me to turn left so I just kept going
10. I just followed the person in front of me. I didn’t look.

[HoHoHo]

rs1952 said:

0736 Victoria – Southampton passing time approx. 0834
0756 Bognor Regis – Victoria passing time approx. 0834
0736 Victoria – Bognor Regis passing time approx. 0838
0713 Southampton – Victoria passing time approx. 0840

The car appears to have been struck by the 0713 Southampton to Victoria, and the 0736 Victoria to Bognor was the one that managed to stop in time.

The train that hit the car was going south, not north.

I have exact times of my arrival under the bridge at Two Mile Ash and then at the crossing from my Strava account. I'm not sure I should publish those details just yet.

[rs1952]

HoHoHo said:

rs1952 said:

0736 Victoria – Southampton passing time approx. 0834
0756 Bognor Regis – Victoria passing time approx. 0834
0736 Victoria – Bognor Regis passing time approx. 0838
0713 Southampton – Victoria passing time approx. 0840

The car appears to have been struck by the 0713 Southampton to Victoria, and the 0736 Victoria to Bognor was the one that managed to stop in time.

The train that hit the car was going south, not north. would have been the

I have exact times of my arrival under the bridge at Two Mile Ash and then at the crossing from my Strava account. I'm not sure I should publish those details just yet.

I must have misread the details on the other aite - I thought they said the norrthbound train had the collision, So it must have been the other way round, with the 0756 Victoria to Bognor colliding and the 0713 Southampton to Victoria coming to a stand.

In other news from that site:

Mike M said:

Two internal sources have both indicated to me that the cause was zig zag. We will have to wait for the coroner and or RAIB to officially confirm. . If so, I guess that the car insurer can expect a very hefty bill, maybe running into 7 figures.

[HoHoHo]

rs1952 said:

HoHoHo said:

rs1952 said:

0736 Victoria – Southampton passing time approx. 0834
0756 Bognor Regis – Victoria passing time approx. 0834
0736 Victoria – Bognor Regis passing time approx. 0838
0713 Southampton – Victoria passing time approx. 0840

The car appears to have been struck by the 0713 Southampton to Victoria, and the 0736 Victoria to Bognor was the one that managed to stop in time.

The train that hit the car was going south, not north. would have been the

I have exact times of my arrival under the bridge at Two Mile Ash and then at the crossing from my Strava account. I'm not sure I should publish those details just yet.

I must have misread the details on the other aite - I thought they said the norrthbound train had the collision, So it must have been the other way round, with the 0756 Victoria to Bognor colliding and the 0713 Southampton to Victoria coming to a stand.

In other news from that site:

Mike M said:

Two internal sources have both indicated to me that the cause was zig zag. We will have to wait for the coroner and or RAIB to officially confirm. . If so, I guess that the car insurer can expect a very hefty bill, maybe running into 7 figures.

The train was definately travelling towards Billingshurst.

Who are the internal sources and why a 7 figure sum?

[rs1952]

HoHoHo said:

The train was definately travelling towards Billingshurst.

Who are the internal sources and why a 7 figure sum?

The internal sources reported to the poster of that message, not me, so I don't know who they are. However, as it is a railway-related site with many serving and retired railwaymen posting there, it is not impossible that the internal sources are railway employees. I can give you no more information than that.

I presume the remark about the 7-figure sum refers to the costs of putting right the damage. If the car driver is found to be at fault for the accident then the railway would look to his insurers to pick up the bills.

[tvrolet]

I really don't see what the problem with half barriers is - traffic lights on red aren't accompanied by barriers of any kind, but there's an understanding you have to wait. And if we must have barriers then a full barrier always runs the risk of trapping trying to skip under late between both sets.

We don't hear folks whinging 'but there was no barrier' if they jumped a red light at a crossroads and got hit. If folks didn't ignore the lights we wouldn't need barriers at all. Signals say stop, so you stop. Why do we need more expense and complication just to support the darwinesque who can't stop and wait at a light signal?

[silverfoxcc]

Sparks

you closed a post by saying

Should this push have happened many years ago? Yes. But NR is a fairly young organisation and it's predecessor Railtrack was a for-profit entity - this kind of renewal would have been done grudgingly if not at all.

Are you saying persons who was employed by BR in that section of the organisation did not transfer across to Railtrack, and then likewise to NR?

Surely the intelligence/experience they had was not put out with the rubbish in the change over to the great God of money??

[saaby93]

tvrolet said:

I really don't see what the problem with half barriers is - traffic lights on red aren't accompanied by barriers of any kind, but there's an understanding you have to wait. And if we must have barriers then a full barrier always runs the risk of trapping trying to skip under late between both sets.

We don't hear folks whinging 'but there was no barrier' if they jumped a red light at a crossroads and got hit. If folks didn't ignore the lights we wouldn't need barriers at all. Signals say stop, so you stop. Why do we need more expense and complication just to support the darwinesque who can't stop and wait at a light signal?

Traffic lights are a good example. If theyre stuck at red for too long, drivers ( and cyclists) go through

[rs1952]

silverfoxcc said:

Sparks

you closed a post by saying

Should this push have happened many years ago? Yes. But NR is a fairly young organisation and it's predecessor Railtrack was a for-profit entity - this kind of renewal would have been done grudgingly if not at all.

Are you saying persons who was employed by BR in that section of the organisation did not transfer across to Railtrack, and then likewise to NR?

Surely the intelligence/experience they had was not put out with the rubbish in the change over to the great God of money??

It was y'know...

At the time of privatisation great armies of time served railwaymen were made redundant or just cleared off. "We've had enough of experts" did not start with Michael Gove...

Then the problems started. To take just one example, BR Engineers carried out rail grinding from time to time to get rid of the hairline cracks that appear at the wheel/ track interface, thereby stopping them grow into big cracks.

"This wasn't necessary" said the new people in charge and then stopped doing it. Their money saving policy was a rip roaring success right up to the time of the Hatfield crash in 2000, when it killed four people and injured 70.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatfield_rail_crash

[rs1952]

saaby93 said:

tvrolet said:

I really don't see what the problem with half barriers is - traffic lights on red aren't accompanied by barriers of any kind, but there's an understanding you have to wait. And if we must have barriers then a full barrier always runs the risk of trapping trying to skip under late between both sets.

We don't hear folks whinging 'but there was no barrier' if they jumped a red light at a crossroads and got hit. If folks didn't ignore the lights we wouldn't need barriers at all. Signals say stop, so you stop. Why do we need more expense and complication just to support the darwinesque who can't stop and wait at a light signal?

Traffic lights are a good example. If theyre stuck at red for too long, drivers ( and cyclists) go through

But even if they do, those in their right mind would check to make sure there is nothing coming first.

Google street view shows the line to be virtually straight as far as the eye can see on that crossing.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.0282094,-0.395182,...

We of course don't yet know for certain that it was caused by zig zagging, but if it was it would only have been common sense to check the way was clear before you floored the accelerator. The guy even had a passenger - he could have asked him to get out and have a look.

[FlyingFin]

HoHoHo said:

Had a pretty st night albeit not as st as some Got very drunk which actually didn’t help at all.

If’s and but’s are running through my head, why didn’t I at least go and see if there was any sign of life. I think I knew what was what and the fire was so intense with who knows what in that little building about to go pop and bang again and it would have been difficult to get to the young lad. It’s funny, in this day and age one doesn’t want to get too close in case you’re seen as interfering or just being nosey so I stood there and looked like a right plonka, just staring. I also know for-all about medicine so I didn’t think I could be of any help. One man shortly afterwards arrived and started to take pictures with his camera phone. I asked him to stop out of respect which he did but that’s what some do these days

How the emergency services cope I really don’t know, I guess you just get on with it and then go home and make dinner and give your loved ones a cuddle.

Edited by HoHoHo on Sunday 18th February 11:53

We just become accustomed to death and carnage... we never get used to it.....


I still have a 'haunting' if thats the right word, that comes back to me time and time again.

A30... Surrey... Man versus 36 Tonne Tipper, Tipper won by squashing and cutting the man in half and I will leave the rest to your imaginations...

23 years later and I still feel guilty that I did nothing to assist the man apart from putting a blanket over him...

He was leaning on his left elbow, gasping his last as I approached him and had no lower half left... Massive head injuries... I was first on scene and even with my near Paramedic standard First Aid training... I could do absolutely nothing for him...


Its the doing nothing that gets to me..... But there was NOTHING that could be done to save him.


Even so, I still feel guilty...


Best advice to you? Don't blame yourself. You came across the incident and could not have prevented it from happening in any way.

But do talk about it, bottling it up wont help you to forget....

[HoHoHo]

FlyingFin said:

HoHoHo said:

Had a pretty st night albeit not as st as some Got very drunk which actually didn’t help at all.

If’s and but’s are running through my head, why didn’t I at least go and see if there was any sign of life. I think I knew what was what and the fire was so intense with who knows what in that little building about to go pop and bang again and it would have been difficult to get to the young lad. It’s funny, in this day and age one doesn’t want to get too close in case you’re seen as interfering or just being nosey so I stood there and looked like a right plonka, just staring. I also know for-all about medicine so I didn’t think I could be of any help. One man shortly afterwards arrived and started to take pictures with his camera phone. I asked him to stop out of respect which he did but that’s what some do these days

How the emergency services cope I really don’t know, I guess you just get on with it and then go home and make dinner and give your loved ones a cuddle.

Edited by HoHoHo on Sunday 18th February 11:53

We just become accustomed to death and carnage... we never get used to it.....


I still have a 'haunting' if thats the right word, that comes back to me time and time again.

A30... Surrey... Man versus 36 Tonne Tipper, Tipper won by squashing and cutting the man in half and I will leave the rest to your imaginations...

23 years later and I still feel guilty that I did nothing to assist the man apart from putting a blanket over him...

He was leaning on his left elbow, gasping his last as I approached him and had no lower half left... Massive head injuries... I was first on scene and even with my near Paramedic standard First Aid training... I could do absolutely nothing for him...


Its the doing nothing that gets to me..... But there was NOTHING that could be done to save him.


Even so, I still feel guilty...


Best advice to you? Don't blame yourself. You came across the incident and could not have prevented it from happening in any way.

But do talk about it, bottling it up wont help you to forget....

Appreciate the advice and I’m talking about it a lot.

As you say it’s the doing nothing that haunts me, why didn’t I have a look? At the time I summed up the entire situation and from my eyes there was nothing to be done....so why simply stare? The police have suggested I couldn’t have done anything, nothing at all. I also feel so sad for those involved. His mother heard the bang and visited the scene immediately after the crash but she didn’t see the car and went off to work. She then had a text during the morning whilst at work from the football coach asking where her son was.....she then realised that 2+2 = .......... OMG

I have one picture in my mind and I know it will fade but for the moment it’s there.....right there.

Fortunately I have a good wife and group of friends who are helping and understanding.

[sparks85]

rs1952 said:

silverfoxcc said:

Sparks

you closed a post by saying

Should this push have happened many years ago? Yes. But NR is a fairly young organisation and it's predecessor Railtrack was a for-profit entity - this kind of renewal would have been done grudgingly if not at all.

Are you saying persons who was employed by BR in that section of the organisation did not transfer across to Railtrack, and then likewise to NR?

Surely the intelligence/experience they had was not put out with the rubbish in the change over to the great God of money??

It was y'know...

At the time of privatisation great armies of time served railwaymen were made redundant or just cleared off. "We've had enough of experts" did not start with Michael Gove...

Then the problems started. To take just one example, BR Engineers carried out rail grinding from time to time to get rid of the hairline cracks that appear at the wheel/ track interface, thereby stopping them grow into big cracks.

"This wasn't necessary" said the new people in charge and then stopped doing it. Their money saving policy was a rip roaring success right up to the time of the Hatfield crash in 2000, when it killed four people and injured 70.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatfield_rail_crash

RS1952 beat me to it.

Whilst I won't profess to be an expert on that era, the privatization from BR to Railtrack would have no doubt "streamlined" the organisation and been a chance to "get rid" of many experienced people on higher salaries and pension commitments, co-incidentally the longer serving and more experienced staff.

Whereas BR did much work in-house, Railtrack then basically pushed out most of the engineering work to it's contractors, so this knowledge was allowed to leave the business and with it standards dropped as the knowledge was no longer centralised. The Hatfield Rail Crash was directly and openly attributed to this.

With privatization also came the need to make a profit, and in simple terms this means less resource doing more maintenance work, standards dropped and disorganisation set in. The Potters Bar crash was attributed to this.

My comment in the previous post was that it takes decades for improvements to materialise on the railway, throwing money at it isn't the secret as renewals and enhancements take time to come to fruition. It's been 15 odd years since NR were created in 2002, but in the grand scheme of things this is a short time period. I feel I should add again that these comments are not to excuse what has happened at Horsham, but are intended to provide insight into the railway industry.