Two killed at a crossing near Horsham

[The Mad Monk]

A sad story - of course.

It seems that a grandfather inadvertently kills his (presumably) beloved grandson.

What moral, or practical lessons can we draw from this incident?

[HTP99]

The Mad Monk said:

What moral, or practical lessons can we draw from this incident?

The barriers are down for a reason!

[Robertj21a]

The Mad Monk said:

A sad story - of course.

It seems that a grandfather inadvertently kills his (presumably) beloved grandson.

What moral, or practical lessons can we draw from this incident?

Don't mess with trains ?

[rs1952]

FunkyChucker said:

rs1952 said:

But even if they do, those in their right mind would check to make sure there is nothing coming first.

Google street view shows the line to be virtually straight as far as the eye can see on that crossing.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.0282094,-0.395182,...

We of course don't yet know for certain that it was caused by zig zagging, but if it was it would only have been common sense to check the way was clear before you floored the accelerator. The guy even had a passenger - he could have asked him to get out and have a look.

..or use the telephone provided, to contact the signaller would be the best option.

Absolutely correct, but I was in the mindset of responding to saaby's analogy of jumping "normal" traffis lights

[saaby93]

rs1952 said:

FunkyChucker said:

rs1952 said:

But even if they do, those in their right mind would check to make sure there is nothing coming first.

Google street view shows the line to be virtually straight as far as the eye can see on that crossing.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.0282094,-0.395182,...

We of course don't yet know for certain that it was caused by zig zagging, but if it was it would only have been common sense to check the way was clear before you floored the accelerator. The guy even had a passenger - he could have asked him to get out and have a look.

..or use the telephone provided, to contact the signaller would be the best option.

Absolutely correct, but I was in the mindset of responding to saaby's analogy of jumping "normal" traffis lights

I think thats a great idea about the phone though
Something like
In a hurry? Think the barrier is stuck? Phone [phone]

[rs1952]

saaby93 said:

I think thats a great idea about the phone though
Something like
In a hurry? Think the barrier is stuck? Phone [phone]

It's not a great idea that a PH poster has just come up with - it is what you are supposed to do in such circumstances.

The phone provided is not a "normal" phone - it connects you to the signalling centre, and the signalling centre only. Not unlike emergency phones on motorways. All level crossings are fitted with them.

[FlyingFin]

HoHoHo said:

Appreciate the advice and I’m talking about it a lot.

As you say it’s the doing nothing that haunts me, why didn’t I have a look? At the time I summed up the entire situation and from my eyes there was nothing to be done....so why simply stare? The police have suggested I couldn’t have done anything, nothing at all. I also feel so sad for those involved. His mother heard the bang and visited the scene immediately after the crash but she didn’t see the car and went off to work. She then had a text during the morning whilst at work from the football coach asking where her son was.....she then realised that 2+2 = .......... OMG

I have one picture in my mind and I know it will fade but for the moment it’s there.....right there.

Fortunately I have a good wife and group of friends who are helping and understanding.

Its a form of shock that makes you freeze, combined with, I believe, a subconscious assessment of what you can see, which the brain then tells you
not to get any closer as you can not help, or do anything more than you already have done, hence you stand there and look on.
There is nothing you can do about it, thats the way the body reacts, and also it stops you from getting too close to the atrocities that lay ahead.

Freezing happens to all of us but we, as professionals have to overcome the 'frozen to the spot' feeling and get on with what we are there to do.

You did the right thing and as much as you could. I am sure if there was anything you could have done, you would have gone into automatic mode and done so.


Take care mate and feel free to contact me if you want to have a natter.

[kev1974]

rs1952 said:

It's not a great idea that a PH poster has just come up with - it is what you are supposed to do in such circumstances.

The phone provided is not a "normal" phone - it connects you to the signalling centre, and the signalling centre only. Not unlike emergency phones on motorways. All level crossings are fitted with them.

All level crossings? Don't think so. Where is the phone on these level crossings in West London, which I pass by every few days?

https://goo.gl/maps/Nc84t9B5axB2
https://goo.gl/maps/dV8zhc33jWx
https://goo.gl/maps/MqyWAN7VpW72

They are all full barrier crossings, maybe the phones are only at half barrier crossings.

I live within sight of one of those crossings. From Network Rail's own surveys, in daytime hours it is down more minutes per hour than it is up, such is the frequency of the trains. I quite regularly see misuse there, from trucks taking out the barriers as they come down (this happens surprisingly often ... they seem to have a depot which must be stocked with spares of all the right lengths as they come out and fit new barriers within an hour or two, and get the line back open again). Also have seen idiot pedestrians that have run across on the red light and got trapped inside the crossing. The CCTV must be pretty good, they can see that someone is standing next to the barrier looking stupid and they are able to raise the two "exit side" barriers to let them out.

[theboss]

Could you imagine the volume of calls taken from impatient motorists if a regular phone number were provided?

“But I’ve been waiting here more than 2 minutes and the barrier is still down. Something must be wrong. I think I’m going to just drive round it.”

x 1000’s

The signs and laws are very clear - the barrier is down for a reason. I can’t think that introducing ambiguity (“the barriers down but let’s just call in case it’s safe to proceed anyway”) would help in any way.

We’ve just had several police constabularys tweet asking people not to phone in about KFC running out of stock - that’s the mentality of the lowest common denominator we’re talking about.

This story is particularly tragic given the death of a completely innocent child passenger - but just goes to show that (assuming the grandfather did drive around the barrier) all sorts of people are capable of making such monumentally poor judgements - not just impatient van drivers or hot hatches full of promising young footballers. One would assume that a grandfather transporting his beloved would be generally more careful than most.

[saaby93]

theboss said:

Could you imagine the volume of calls taken from impatient motorists if a regular phone number were provided?

Good. it might someone wake up and sort out the crossing times before more of these occur ( if thats what happened)

theboss said:

“But I’ve been waiting here more than 2 minutes and the barrier is still down.
Something must be wrong. I think I’m going to just drive round it.”

There is a time limit and I remember the previous thread said it wasnt as long as 2 minutes, but lets say 5 minutes
'Or two trains have been through we're still sat here - whats happening'

So yes lets have the calls rather than people driving around without calling

Isnt it time the RAIB started looking into cause of these rather than effect

[sparks85]

saaby93 said:

theboss said:

Could you imagine the volume of calls taken from impatient motorists if a regular phone number were provided?

Good. it might someone wake up and sort out the crossing times before more of these occur ( if thats what happened)

theboss said:

“But I’ve been waiting here more than 2 minutes and the barrier is still down.
Something must be wrong. I think I’m going to just drive round it.”

There is a time limit and I remember the previous thread said it wasnt as long as 2 minutes, but lets say 5 minutes
'Or two trains have been through we're still sat here - whats happening'

So yes lets have the calls rather than people driving around without calling

Isnt it time the RAIB started looking into cause of these rather than effect

I'm afraid its not "good."

Who exactly is going to take these phone calls? By their nature the phones are routed to the responsible Signaller. If it he or she has to take a phone call every couple of minutes from someone too impatient to follow the rules then who is going to do their work (i.e controlling trains)? Signallers workload is subject to an ergonomic study (i.e, is their workload suitable or are they under pressure to be responsible for too many elements of work, risking a mistake and a catastrophic error).

If the process allowed every member of the public to call and check, rather than follow the barriers/lights, then you introduce the risk of people jumping the barriers/lights the next time, because they'd been given permission to go once and it must be ok to assume it is the same this time. How do you stop the flow of road traffic once the first car drives around?

The general public are, as a general rule, stupid and unfortunately have to be protected from themselves. As a previous poster said you are dealing with a body of people who call the Police when KFC run out of chicken or someone on Facebook says something horrible to them.

The system needs to be clear and robust, and cannot allow for interpretation or ambiguity.

The RAIB and ORR, are well aware of the reasons why these accidents occur. There's nothing groundbreaking here. But as explained previously, there's also no silver bullet. It takes time, money and resources to upgrade these crossings, so they have to be addressed in order of priority. There will come a time in perhaps 15-20 years time when no AHB's remain in service.

[saaby93]

sparks85 said:

The RAIB and ORR, are well aware of the reasons why these accidents occur. There's nothing groundbreaking here. But as explained previously, there's also no silver bullet. It takes time, money and resources to upgrade these crossings, so they have to be addressed in order of priority. There will come a time in perhaps 15-20 years time when no AHB's remain in service.

AHBs in themselves aren't a problem
There does seem to be a failure to understand human behaviour each time one of these crops up

[saaby93]

sparks85 said:

If the process allowed every member of the public to call and check, rather than follow the barriers/lights, then you introduce the risk of people jumping the barriers/lights the next time, because they'd been given permission to go once and it must be ok to assume it is the same this time. How do you stop the flow of road traffic once the first car drives around?

No
If theyd been given permission once, because the system is dumb, the immediate thing to do is revise the system so no-one has to phone there again.
Over time there'll be no need to use the phones, unless the barrier really is broken

Edited by saaby93 on Monday 26th February 14:46

[Nik da Greek]

WTF?

If the barrier is broken then the signal box supervisor will be organising with the local authorities to close the road until they can get handsignallers to take local control of the crossing, not give permission to bucolic fkwits to drive around the barriers That will NEVER happen

In the case of any infrastructure failure there are pages of rules that must be complied with just to institute safe working. At no point, ever, do any of these rules include allowing Joe Public to ignore vital safety measures and treat the railway as a minor inconvenience. Because as Grandpa proved, idiots and trains do not interact well

[sparks85]

saaby93 said:

sparks85 said:

The RAIB and ORR, are well aware of the reasons why these accidents occur. There's nothing groundbreaking here. But as explained previously, there's also no silver bullet. It takes time, money and resources to upgrade these crossings, so they have to be addressed in order of priority. There will come a time in perhaps 15-20 years time when no AHB's remain in service.

AHBs in themselves aren't a problem
There does seem to be a failure to understand human behaviour each time one of these crops up

This is well covered ground and unfortunately you've not hit upon some until now unrealised solution with a eureka moment. Human behaviour in these instances is well understood and a programme of ongoing renewals/upgrades is in place but as mentioned this takes time.

If you assess this problem there are two viewpoints:

1. The AHB works fine, it's the public that are the problem. If they can't follow the system then that's their problem etc.
2. The AHB is flawed as it doesn't accommodate for the recklessness of a small proportion of the general public.The public have a right to display their stupidity.

Unfortunately, Option 1 is not really a feasible approach for NR and the ORR to take. Yes, AHB's in theory are perfect. But if in reality they are proven to be overwhelmed by a reoccurring trend of public behaviour, then in reality AHB's ARE flawed as they are not fit for purpose. In this case fit for purpose needs to mean zero fatalities or injuries.

The way to achieve this, i.e cater for the most stupid proportion of the general public, is to implement systems which do not permit the option of circumventing the system. For LX's this would be the aforementioned CCTV or OD crossings - crossings which do not permit the train to proceed until the crossing is proven clear, crossings which do not allow drivers or pedestrians to drive/walk around the barriers.

Unfortunately, there are hundreds of AHB's on the network and replacing these with CCTV or OD crossings will increase train journey times (as they take longer to prove clear than AHB's and may require trains to slow or stop at signals) and come as a significant cost (both to implement and then to maintain and manage - as with CCTV you'd need more Signallers each handling a smaller portion of line, each with multiple more crossings in place).

[saaby93]

sparks85 said:

This is well covered ground and unfortunately you've not hit upon some until now unrealised solution with a eureka moment. Human behaviour in these instances is well understood and a programme of ongoing renewals/upgrades is in place but as mentioned this takes time.

If you assess this problem there are two viewpoints:

1. The AHB works fine, it's the public that are the problem. If they can't follow the system then that's their problem etc.
2. The AHB is flawed as it doesn't accommodate for the recklessness of a small proportion of the general public.The public have a right to display their stupidity.

Unfortunately, Option 1 is not really a feasible approach for NR and the ORR to take. Yes, AHB's in theory are perfect. But if in reality they are proven to be overwhelmed by a reoccurring trend of public behaviour, then in reality AHB's ARE flawed as they are not fit for purpose. In this case fit for purpose needs to mean zero fatalities or injuries.

The way to achieve this, i.e cater for the most stupid proportion of the general public, is to implement systems which do not permit the option of circumventing the system. For LX's this would be the aforementioned CCTV or OD crossings - crossings which do not permit the train to proceed until the crossing is proven clear, crossings which do not allow drivers or pedestrians to drive/walk around the barriers.

Unfortunately, there are hundreds of AHB's on the network and replacing these with CCTV or OD crossings will increase train journey times (as they take longer to prove clear than AHB's and may require trains to slow or stop at signals) and come as a significant cost (both to implement and then to maintain and manage - as with CCTV you'd need more Signallers each handling a smaller portion of line, each with multiple more crossings in place).

Someone who hasnt understood the problem
and hence come up with the wrong solution
Have one more go

[sparks85]

saaby93 said:

sparks85 said:

If the process allowed every member of the public to call and check, rather than follow the barriers/lights, then you introduce the risk of people jumping the barriers/lights the next time, because they'd been given permission to go once and it must be ok to assume it is the same this time. How do you stop the flow of road traffic once the first car drives around?

No
If theyd been given permission once, because the system is dumb, the immediate thing to do is revise the system so no-one has to phone there again.
Over time there'll be no need to use the phones, unless the barrier really is broken

Edited by saaby93 on Monday 26th February 14:46

And just to follow this up, unfortunately I can't follow your logic here (forgive me as I don't align with your witty t-shirt picture). Playing Devils Advocate for a second to imagine your proposed system (which as Nik said, will not happen in a million years):

Let's imagine 3 cars pull up at an AHB where the barriers are down. A train passes but the barriers remain down. Driver 1 gets out and phones the Signaller. When the Signaller is free to talk - which can take some time, as he can't just drop everything he's doing - he permits Driver 1 to pass. Does Driver 2 then pull up to the stop line, get out, call the Signaller and seek permission to cross? He obviously can't just follow Driver 1, because the situation may have changed etc. So how do the queuing drivers know when it is no longer safe to cross?

Then moving onto behaviours and increasing risk - the next day, Driver 1 arrives at the same crossing with the barriers down. Do you really think he'll stop, get out, call the Signaller etc.. or just drive across because it's probably the same as yesterday... I mean, he got permission yesterday so it's probably going to be alright isn't it..?

[sparks85]

saaby93 said:

omeone who hasnt understood the problem
and hence come up with the wrong solution
Have one more go

I mean, that's an inviting offer but I don't really have time to guess at what you are trying to suggest.

I don't mind giving up my time to try to explain things from the real world, using the benefit of my experience (10 years in Signalling and E&P).

But I do understand the problem - in fact it was my job for a couple of years - and whilst I'm happy to have an open mind, I sincerely doubt you're going to offer anything new that the rail industry hasn't at one time or another considered.

[saaby93]

Anyway somethings gone awry here
Let's hope everything can be reconsidered in that light

[Nik da Greek]

Opinionated idiot is an idiot Ignores decades of relevant expertise being explained to him in terms even a cretin could grasp to propound gibberish theories.

Of course, it's Pistonheads. Because why let the real world get in the way of spouting ill-informed rubbish