Tornado To Be Axed

Author
Discussion

Kccv23highliftcam

1,783 posts

74 months

Thursday 12th April 2018
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Dr Jekyll said:
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
Dr Jekyll said:
This is exactly the same principle as a sidewinder of course. It doesn't turn to head directly for the target but keeps it on a constant bearing which often means it will aim ahead of the target. Constant bearing decreasing range means you hit it sooner or later.
Depends upon which variant of the 'winder you are talking about.
I was afraid it might
paperbag
All the varients I trained on used prop nav, was it the A/B/C versions that were the moths?

Oh USMC tries some earlies with a RF homer too...

Eric Mc

121,787 posts

264 months

Thursday 12th April 2018
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"Prop Nav"?

Kccv23highliftcam

1,783 posts

74 months

Thursday 12th April 2018
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Eric Mc said:
"Prop Nav"?
proportional navigation Eric.

hairyben

8,516 posts

182 months

Sunday 22nd April 2018
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What does the tornado do that can't be added to the typhoons capability, why does the raf need f35s?

I thought the point of the typhoon was a multirole strike and fighter platform?

Evanivitch

19,808 posts

121 months

Sunday 22nd April 2018
quotequote all
hairyben said:
What does the tornado do that can't be added to the typhoons capability, why does the raf need f35s?

I thought the point of the typhoon was a multirole strike and fighter platform?
Tornado doesn't do anything the Typhoon couldn't without significant investment in weapon and sensor integration, and cost.

F35 is a different Beast entirely.

hairyben

8,516 posts

182 months

Sunday 22nd April 2018
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
Tornado doesn't do anything the Typhoon couldn't without significant investment in weapon and sensor integration, and cost.

F35 is a different Beast entirely.
so basically the f35 will have the capabilities needed in a more off-the-shelf way?

AndrewEH1

4,917 posts

152 months

Sunday 22nd April 2018
quotequote all
hairyben said:
Evanivitch said:
Tornado doesn't do anything the Typhoon couldn't without significant investment in weapon and sensor integration, and cost.

F35 is a different Beast entirely.
so basically the f35 will have the capabilities needed in a more off-the-shelf way?
We need something to fly from our aircraft carriers too, other than helicopter and drones.

Evanivitch

19,808 posts

121 months

Sunday 22nd April 2018
quotequote all
hairyben said:
Evanivitch said:
Tornado doesn't do anything the Typhoon couldn't without significant investment in weapon and sensor integration, and cost.

F35 is a different Beast entirely.
so basically the f35 will have the capabilities needed in a more off-the-shelf way?
No. The Typhoon could not be adapted to an F35 equivalent.

Ginetta G15 Girl

3,220 posts

183 months

Sunday 22nd April 2018
quotequote all
hairyben said:
What does the tornado do that can't be added to the typhoons capability, why does the raf need f35s?

I thought the point of the typhoon was a multirole strike and fighter platform?
The RAF always wanted Tyhoon as a 'swing role' platform. Ie it was to replace Tornado F3 in the Air Defence role and Jaguar in the Air to Ground role. However our European partners merely wanted an air defender so it's taken some time to get Typhoon up and running in the AG role.

Currently Typhoon is not yet cleared for Stormshadow, nor can it carry the RAPTOR recce pod (the latter is to big to fit the centreline pylon on Typhoon).


Edited by Ginetta G15 Girl on Wednesday 25th April 20:23

MartG

20,626 posts

203 months

Sunday 22nd April 2018
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Stormshadow is being worked on ( https://www.eurofighter.com/news-and-events/2016/0... ) but the current RAPTOR pod is simply too large to fit on a Typhoon. The alternative is the FJP2 pod from the same manufacturer

Kccv23highliftcam

1,783 posts

74 months

Wednesday 25th April 2018
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
hairyben said:
Evanivitch said:
Tornado doesn't do anything the Typhoon couldn't without significant investment in weapon and sensor integration, and cost.

F35 is a different Beast entirely.
so basically the f35 will have the capabilities needed in a more off-the-shelf way?
No. The Typhoon could not be adapted to an F35 equivalent.
You say that like it's a bad thing rofl

frodo_monkey

670 posts

195 months

Wednesday 25th April 2018
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Have you been drinking the BAE Kool Aid?! Typhoon is just a brilliantly simple way for BAE to milk the taxpayer dry - the only reason it is anywhere near as capable as it is, is the hard work of Service people. No thanks to the shysters at Warton.

Ian Lancs

1,126 posts

165 months

Thursday 26th April 2018
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frodo_monkey said:
Have you been drinking the BAE Kool Aid?! Typhoon is just a brilliantly simple way for BAE to milk the taxpayer dry - the only reason it is anywhere near as capable as it is, is the hard work of Service people. No thanks to the shysters at Warton.
Yup - Typhoon is 100% BAE. Wonder what Airbus and Leonardo actually do then....

Dr Jekyll

23,820 posts

260 months

Thursday 26th April 2018
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frodo_monkey said:
Have you been drinking the BAE Kool Aid?! Typhoon is just a brilliantly simple way for BAE to milk the taxpayer dry - the only reason it is anywhere near as capable as it is, is the hard work of Service people. No thanks to the shysters at Warton.
All new combat aircraft have go through the same stages.

1. We don’t need anything like that.
2. We do need something like it, but it’ll never become operational.
3. It’s sort of operational but doesn’t do the job.
4. It is doing the job, but only because of our enormous efforts.
5. It’s brilliant, why are we getting rid in favour of something new that obviously won’t do the job?

Sometimes the concerns are justified, but ALL combat aircraft since WW2 have gone through all the stages even If they ended up being successful.


Hunter Lightning and Tornado went through to stage 5 but it took a long time. TSR2 never got beyond 2, Swift stage 3. F35 is struggling to get from 3 to 4. Once an aircraft reaches stage 4 it’s normally going to be OK.

Evanivitch

19,808 posts

121 months

Thursday 26th April 2018
quotequote all
frodo_monkey said:
Have you been drinking the BAE Kool Aid?! Typhoon is just a brilliantly simple way for BAE to milk the taxpayer dry - the only reason it is anywhere near as capable as it is, is the hard work of Service people. No thanks to the shysters at Warton.
Have you ever worked with MoD?

andy97

4,691 posts

221 months

Thursday 26th April 2018
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I think you will find that Frodo's employer is the MoD!

Evanivitch

19,808 posts

121 months

Thursday 26th April 2018
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andy97 said:
I think you will find that Frodo's employer is the MoD!
Then he's probably not had to work with them, only for them. Big difference.

I can give you multiple examples of MOD mismanagement driving up costs and the supplier being painted as the money grabbing machine.

MartG

20,626 posts

203 months

Thursday 26th April 2018
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Evanivitch said:
I can give you multiple examples of MOD mismanagement driving up costs and the supplier being painted as the money grabbing machine.
One example being stretching out a project to 'save' money, the MoD logic being that if a project will cost say £100M over 5 years, at £20m/year, then stretching it out to 10 years will reduce that figure to £10M/year with no increase in overall cost. In reality of course the contractor has certain fixed costs ( staff wages, utility costs, finance charges, etc. ) which would be doubled by such a delay, never mind the effect of inflation, so the final total rises massively.

And of course they also keep changing the requirements - "we wanted something to do X, but now we want it to do Y and Z too. What do you mean it's going to cost more ?"

Edited by MartG on Thursday 26th April 11:21

Trevatanus

11,109 posts

149 months

Thursday 26th April 2018
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I guess there are no plans to keep any airworthy for displays etc?
I realise that the BBMF is exactly that, a memorial to the Battle of Britain, BUT, Tornado has done a stirling job in many conflicts for several decades, I guess it's all down to cash though.

Europa1

10,923 posts

187 months

Thursday 26th April 2018
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Trevatanus said:
I guess there are no plans to keep any airworthy for displays etc?
I realise that the BBMF is exactly that, a memorial to the Battle of Britain, BUT, Tornado has done a stirling job in many conflicts for several decades, I guess it's all down to cash though.
I suspect a Tornado is way, way too complex to keep flying compared to the BBMF aircraft.

And just to add my personal note of pedantry: why is it called the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight when it includes a Lancaster?


Edited by Europa1 on Thursday 26th April 11:34