Massive train timetabling amendments
Discussion
blueg33 said:
Train arrived on the platform on time this morning. But they wouldn't open the doors because 1 crew member had not turned up! We had to stand on the platform for 10 minutes until the chap turned up.
This delayed 2 other trains behind we were then held at a signal because a train we should have been in front of was now in front of us. As a result I missed my next connection for a service that only runs once an hour!
The train that wouldn't open its doors, had a driver and a train manager on board, why does it even need another crew member to push a button to open the doors?
Because Unions.This delayed 2 other trains behind we were then held at a signal because a train we should have been in front of was now in front of us. As a result I missed my next connection for a service that only runs once an hour!
The train that wouldn't open its doors, had a driver and a train manager on board, why does it even need another crew member to push a button to open the doors?
Riley Blue said:
O/H's morning train has been rescheduled from 6:54 to 7:02 and the 6:58 to 6:54. Complicated ain't it?
That's fine, but of course some towns have had their peak time trains changed rather more than that, moving half an hour or more earlier or later in the mornings and evenings, which would have rather wider implications on childcare or work times I would expect. An extra hour of childcare per day is £5-10 so £25-50 per week, that's quite significant. Sure, its all for the "greater good" but I expect most people won't particularly care that thanks to the train timetable change, the percentage of on-time and frequency is now a few percent higher overall if it affects them negatively all the time.
99dndd said:
blueg33 said:
Train arrived on the platform on time this morning. But they wouldn't open the doors because 1 crew member had not turned up! We had to stand on the platform for 10 minutes until the chap turned up.
This delayed 2 other trains behind we were then held at a signal because a train we should have been in front of was now in front of us. As a result I missed my next connection for a service that only runs once an hour!
The train that wouldn't open its doors, had a driver and a train manager on board, why does it even need another crew member to push a button to open the doors?
Because Unions.This delayed 2 other trains behind we were then held at a signal because a train we should have been in front of was now in front of us. As a result I missed my next connection for a service that only runs once an hour!
The train that wouldn't open its doors, had a driver and a train manager on board, why does it even need another crew member to push a button to open the doors?
I would like to know a bit more about this before I started pontificating. Why was the train a member of staff short in the first place? Was there doubt over whether the train would run at all until the staff member turned up? There is no bloody point in letting people on to a train only to turf them off again 10 minutes later when it becomes clear the train ain't going anywhere because it's a staff member short.
Just a few thoughts to be going on with unless or until we get a bit more information.
rs1952 said:
Because unions my arse...
I would like to know a bit more about this before I started pontificating. Why was the train a member of staff short in the first place? Was there doubt over whether the train would run at all until the staff member turned up? There is no bloody point in letting people on to a train only to turf them off again 10 minutes later when it becomes clear the train ain't going anywhere because it's a staff member short.
Just a few thoughts to be going on with unless or until we get a bit more information.
Strangely the station staff didn't give us the full details, but as I travel the route regularly the despatcher recognised me and told me about the crew member. After 10 minutes they did let us board and we had to wait for another couple of mins for the crew member. Said crew member got on the train, inserted a square key thing in a panel, pressed a button and the doors closed. I would like to know a bit more about this before I started pontificating. Why was the train a member of staff short in the first place? Was there doubt over whether the train would run at all until the staff member turned up? There is no bloody point in letting people on to a train only to turf them off again 10 minutes later when it becomes clear the train ain't going anywhere because it's a staff member short.
Just a few thoughts to be going on with unless or until we get a bit more information.
It looks like we waited for the a bloke who was allowed to push that button!
blueg33 said:
Strangely the station staff didn't give us the full details, but as I travel the route regularly the despatcher recognised me and told me about the crew member. After 10 minutes they did let us board and we had to wait for another couple of mins for the crew member. Said crew member got on the train, inserted a square key thing in a panel, pressed a button and the doors closed.
It looks like we waited for the a bloke who was allowed to push that button!
Sounds like the whole SWT strikes last year where they didn't want to down grade the 'guard' to 'train manager' making the driver solely responsible for safety. It looks like we waited for the a bloke who was allowed to push that button!
This is quite a long and detailed article, but it does explain pretty well what's going on, and where the lack of preparation/planning/money is causing problems.
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/the-cicad...
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/the-cicad...
blueg33 said:
rs1952 said:
Because unions my arse...
I would like to know a bit more about this before I started pontificating. Why was the train a member of staff short in the first place? Was there doubt over whether the train would run at all until the staff member turned up? There is no bloody point in letting people on to a train only to turf them off again 10 minutes later when it becomes clear the train ain't going anywhere because it's a staff member short.
Just a few thoughts to be going on with unless or until we get a bit more information.
Strangely the station staff didn't give us the full details, but as I travel the route regularly the despatcher recognised me and told me about the crew member. After 10 minutes they did let us board and we had to wait for another couple of mins for the crew member. Said crew member got on the train, inserted a square key thing in a panel, pressed a button and the doors closed. I would like to know a bit more about this before I started pontificating. Why was the train a member of staff short in the first place? Was there doubt over whether the train would run at all until the staff member turned up? There is no bloody point in letting people on to a train only to turf them off again 10 minutes later when it becomes clear the train ain't going anywhere because it's a staff member short.
Just a few thoughts to be going on with unless or until we get a bit more information.
It looks like we waited for the a bloke who was allowed to push that button!
If they'd have let you on, and then turned you all off again because the train was cancelled, the dissatisfaction levels amongst you and the other passengers would probably have been worse than the way they did it.
outnumbered said:
This is quite a long and detailed article, but it does explain pretty well what's going on, and where the lack of preparation/planning/money is causing problems.
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/the-cicad...
Public transport shambles? Never! Did "they" not model the changes beforehand?https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/the-cicad...
I have to use a train later this week for the first time this year, hopefully the last time this year.
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
Look on the brightside, at least on these violently rickety old HSTs, you can slide the windows down on the doors when the HVAC fails in the summer...The worst journey I've had was out of Kings Cross on the ECML. The train left around 5pm on a boiling hot summers day. It was rammed. Standing room only and so I, squeezed myself into the vestibule with 10 others and stood there until the train emptied sufficiently at York to get a seat.
The HVAC had failed before we'd got to Stevenage.
Unpleasant doesn't describe it.
blueg33 said:
RS1952. I haven’t pm’d you back , no point in you digging deeper.
It was Northern Rail and if this mornings news is anything to go by it was just one of a raft of f
k ups under the new timetable.
Thanks for that, but us retired buggers sometimes find enjoyment in digging into things like this, even if lezgr1 thinks I'm wasting my time It was Northern Rail and if this mornings news is anything to go by it was just one of a raft of f
k ups under the new timetable. It was when you said: Hmm. It wasn’t the first stop. I assume it left the first station empty! that I started off on a new train of thought. If there had been passengers on the incoming train then a mini-riot may have broken out with people wanting to get off!
So, of it was empty, where did it come from? (treat that as a rhetorical question if you don't know). Was it perhaps running empty from the carriage sidings or even, in the case of a large station, had it terminated on its earlier working on a different platform and this was simply a positioning move to get it to the right platform for its next working? To take one example, Merseyrail trains do this umpteen times a day at Chester
If there was a guard on the incoming train, was he/she rostered to be relieved by another guard (ie. the one who turned up late)? Then you get into the imponderables - did the original guard have route knowledge for the outbound working (there being no guarantee that the incoming train started at the same place as the outgoing train was heading for). Had the original guard already completed his shift? And so on.
Of course, feel free if you like not to answer or give any more information but I remain intrigued by this tale
rs1952 said:
Thanks for that, but us retired buggers sometimes find enjoyment in digging into things like this, even if lezgr1 thinks I'm wasting my time
It was when you said: Hmm. It wasn’t the first stop. I assume it left the first station empty! that I started off on a new train of thought. If there had been passengers on the incoming train then a mini-riot may have broken out with people wanting to get off!
So, of it was empty, where did it come from? (treat that as a rhetorical question if you don't know). Was it perhaps running empty from the carriage sidings or even, in the case of a large station, had it terminated on its earlier working on a different platform and this was simply a positioning move to get it to the right platform for its next working? To take one example, Merseyrail trains do this umpteen times a day at Chester
If there was a guard on the incoming train, was he/she rostered to be relieved by another guard (ie. the one who turned up late)? Then you get into the imponderables - did the original guard have route knowledge for the outbound working (there being no guarantee that the incoming train started at the same place as the outgoing train was heading for). Had the original guard already completed his shift? And so on.
Of course, feel free if you like not to answer or give any more information but I remain intrigued by this tale
The train goes to Chester from Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport (where I was is the first stop) I am just wondering whether the new timetable means that is doesn't now start at Manchester, I forgot to check that.It was when you said: Hmm. It wasn’t the first stop. I assume it left the first station empty! that I started off on a new train of thought. If there had been passengers on the incoming train then a mini-riot may have broken out with people wanting to get off!
So, of it was empty, where did it come from? (treat that as a rhetorical question if you don't know). Was it perhaps running empty from the carriage sidings or even, in the case of a large station, had it terminated on its earlier working on a different platform and this was simply a positioning move to get it to the right platform for its next working? To take one example, Merseyrail trains do this umpteen times a day at Chester
If there was a guard on the incoming train, was he/she rostered to be relieved by another guard (ie. the one who turned up late)? Then you get into the imponderables - did the original guard have route knowledge for the outbound working (there being no guarantee that the incoming train started at the same place as the outgoing train was heading for). Had the original guard already completed his shift? And so on.
Of course, feel free if you like not to answer or give any more information but I remain intrigued by this tale
If its late from Stockport is gets stuck behind a really slow moving goods train that must be a mile long (may be exaggerating but it takes the goods train about 5 mins to pass through the platform at Stockport,at a speed I would estimate at 20-30mph).
blueg33 said:
The train goes to Chester from Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport (where I was is the first stop) I am just wondering whether the new timetable means that is doesn't now start at Manchester, I forgot to check that.
If its late from Stockport is gets stuck behind a really slow moving goods train that must be a mile long (may be exaggerating but it takes the goods train about 5 mins to pass through the platform at Stockport,at a speed I would estimate at 20-30mph).
In the new timetable there are two trains from Chester that terminate at Stockport in the peak (arriving 0739 and 0839), and one in the reverse direction leaving Stockport at 0818. These are all trains that are extra to the normal hourly service, all of which run to and from Manchester.If its late from Stockport is gets stuck behind a really slow moving goods train that must be a mile long (may be exaggerating but it takes the goods train about 5 mins to pass through the platform at Stockport,at a speed I would estimate at 20-30mph).
The 0818 departure is showing as running more or less to time on Monday on Realtime Trains: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y24404/2018/...
The stock to form the train does indeed get there by a positioning move from platform 4: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y69908/2018/...
And the stock's previous working is the 0739 arrival from Chester, or that is the time showing in the public timetable. The Realtime Trains log shows a booked arrival time of 0746 which suggests either an error in the public timetable or, given that Realtime Trains shows 6.5 minutes recovery time built into the schedule at Cheadle Village junction, this may be a temporary measure to allow for engineering works or some such.
The public times of train arriving from Chester 0739, and train leaving again at 0818, gives it 39 minutes at Stockport and this might be significant. Anything over 30 minutes might indicate an official PNB (internal jargon – stands for personal needs break) for the guard.
On Tuesday, the day the tale comes from, things were a little different
The train from Chester arrived 8 minutes late at 0754: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y25120/2018/...
The positioning move happened straight away, and was in platform 2 by 0816: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y69908/2018/...
The train set off back to Chester at almost 0823, nearly 5 minutes late: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y24404/2018/...
Now for the speculation
The incoming train arrived at Stockport and the guard cleared off – possibly on an official break, or an unofficial one to take a leak/ get a coffee/ whatever, whilst the stock is repositioned from platform 4 to platform 2. The member of staff on the train during the repositioning might not even have been a guard (guards are not necessarily needed for empty stock trains) – he could just have been a member of the station staff going through clearing up any rubbish. He would have no authority to let people on to a train.
The guard comes back from wherever it was that he’d been, rejoins the train, and off you go.
It is also worth mentioning that, if that was an official 30-minute break, then the guard shortened it himself to less than the 29 minutes between one train arriving and the next departing.
So much for “because unions…”
I quite enjoyed that!
Rick101 said:
Elementary my dear rs1952
Guard after break.
Main reason for the late inward....a good old Level Crossing failure.
Nice to see that I can still piece these things together 35+ years after leaving the railway! Guard after break.
Main reason for the late inward....a good old Level Crossing failure.
And of course it also tells another story - if the incoming Chester train is delayed by any more than a minute or two in future, the likelihood is that the outgoing train will also be delayed. Should you have a bolshie bugger who got out of bed the wrong side that morning, that'll mean a full 30-minute break plus a bit of walking time
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