The Phantom - How Good was it Really?
Discussion
Eric Mc said:
FindingMenno said:
So close to a pic of the one of the most phamous Phantoms of all...
Yes - it did cross my mind that it was obviously a sisiter aircraft to Cunningham and Driscoll's machine.
This photo of 'Showtime 100' was taken over the Gulf of Tonkin on March 29th 1972.
aeropilot said:
Err......that is the machine they were flying on May 10th 1972 when they scored the 3 x MigG's to become the USN's only Aces of the Vietnam war
Got a bit wet on the way back though: https://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/03/opinion/an-ace-... - and the first aces not the only aces.Simpo Two said:
aeropilot said:
Err......that is the machine they were flying on May 10th 1972 when they scored the 3 x MigG's to become the USN's only Aces of the Vietnam war
Got a bit wet on the way back though: https://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/03/opinion/an-ace-... - and the first aces not the only aces.The other American Ace Pilot (Steve Richie) was USAF, plus two USAF WSO achieved 'Ace' status as well.
Simpo Two said:
and the first aces not the only aces.
He didn't say 'only aces' he said 'only USN aces.The others were:
Brigadier General Richard Stephen 'Steve' Ritchie USAF (Pilot).
Colonel Charles Barbin 'Chuck' DeBellevue USAF(WSO)
Captain Jeffrey S. Feinstein USAF (WSO)
Edited by Ginetta G15 Girl on Monday 21st May 23:38
Not as such.
UK F4s carried the SUU-23 20mm gun pod on the centreline station.
QRA birds carried 4x Sparrow (later Skyflash), 4x Sidewinder AiM 9G (later AiM 9L) and 2 x Sargeant Fletcher 370 US Gallon tanks on the wing outboard stations, with either a 600 US Gallon centreline tank or the SUU-23.
UK F4s carried the SUU-23 20mm gun pod on the centreline station.
QRA birds carried 4x Sparrow (later Skyflash), 4x Sidewinder AiM 9G (later AiM 9L) and 2 x Sargeant Fletcher 370 US Gallon tanks on the wing outboard stations, with either a 600 US Gallon centreline tank or the SUU-23.
Interesting interview with a Vietnam era Phantom pilot on the Aircrew Interview YT channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-inVs-Y-Nw&t=...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-inVs-Y-Nw&t=...
I was lucky enough to see a display of the USAF Thunderbirds when they flew Phantoms - they made the ground shake.
My brother in law - an RAF F3 pilot at the time - said that the German F4s they sometimes trained with were easy peasy to intercept because the clouds of smoke they emitted meant you could see them a loooong way away.
My brother in law - an RAF F3 pilot at the time - said that the German F4s they sometimes trained with were easy peasy to intercept because the clouds of smoke they emitted meant you could see them a loooong way away.
aeropilot said:
Yes and no.
Given that the original F-4 purchase was for the RN to operate off the Eagle and Ark, these being a lot smaller than the US carriers, it was deemed the extra thrust of the Spey was a sensible choice......plus it meant UK engines, rather than US engines, which at the time, we had never operated a US jet engine a/c in service, so you can see the arguments in the 'for' side.
The Spey engine F-4 was better at low level than the J79 engine which when the UK was part turned over to the RAF when TSR.2 was canned, and they decided not to modify Eagle to operate the beast, the RAF used the F-4 in the A-G role, so again, the Spey being better at low level wasn't an issue. The Spey was significantly less 'smokey' than the J-79, which when blatting around the German border at low level was an advantage.
It was only in the later years when all the RAF F-4 were used in the AD role that the disadvantage of the Spey was shown, this being even more shown up, when the UK bought 15 refurbished ex-USN F-4 with the J79 to re-activate 74 Sqn with.
In the AD role, the F-4J(UK) was clearly the best of the fleet, as the J79 was a much better high level engine, pushing a less draggy airframe.
I was always under the impression the performance difference between UK and US aircraft was because the Speys, whilst more powerful, had a larger diameter than the J79's, so it negated the "area ruled" part of the fuselage over the wings. This increased the drag, and had other aerodynamic effects, meaning the theoretical benefit of a more powerful engine was thus lost.Given that the original F-4 purchase was for the RN to operate off the Eagle and Ark, these being a lot smaller than the US carriers, it was deemed the extra thrust of the Spey was a sensible choice......plus it meant UK engines, rather than US engines, which at the time, we had never operated a US jet engine a/c in service, so you can see the arguments in the 'for' side.
The Spey engine F-4 was better at low level than the J79 engine which when the UK was part turned over to the RAF when TSR.2 was canned, and they decided not to modify Eagle to operate the beast, the RAF used the F-4 in the A-G role, so again, the Spey being better at low level wasn't an issue. The Spey was significantly less 'smokey' than the J-79, which when blatting around the German border at low level was an advantage.
It was only in the later years when all the RAF F-4 were used in the AD role that the disadvantage of the Spey was shown, this being even more shown up, when the UK bought 15 refurbished ex-USN F-4 with the J79 to re-activate 74 Sqn with.
In the AD role, the F-4J(UK) was clearly the best of the fleet, as the J79 was a much better high level engine, pushing a less draggy airframe.
I remember we went on a school trip to RAF Wattisham in the 80's and were allowed to nose around the cockpit of one of the Phantoms they had there under strict instruction "Don't touch ANYTHING".
Iconic aircraft, Eric, are there any models around of the USS Constellation aircraft as per the pic?.
Iconic aircraft, Eric, are there any models around of the USS Constellation aircraft as per the pic?.
texaxile said:
I remember we went on a school trip to RAF Wattisham in the 80's and were allowed to nose around the cockpit of one of the Phantoms they had there under strict instruction "Don't touch ANYTHING".
Iconic aircraft, Eric, are there any models around of the USS Constellation aircraft as per the pic?.
"Showtime 100" was an F-4J The Cunningham and Driscoll markings are widely available in various scales.Iconic aircraft, Eric, are there any models around of the USS Constellation aircraft as per the pic?.
This is a Hasegawa 1/48 version (not built by me, I hasten to add).
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