Helicopter versus jet combat?
Discussion
I watched a totally fluffy action movie over the week called “renegades “; and there’s a scene whereby a Hughes 500 gunship takes on a MiG 21 and achieves a kill. Would it have been possible? And more interestingly could WAWSAW PACT equivalents be able to the same to NATO air assets?
SVX said:
I watched a totally fluffy action movie over the week called “renegades “; and there’s a scene whereby a Hughes 500 gunship takes on a MiG 21 and achieves a kill. Would it have been possible?
Highly unlikely, or next to impossible I would have thought....And given the max speed of the Hughes is significantly below the stall speed of the 21...... I'm struggling to think of a scenario where an engagement could realistically occur?
As with everything, it depends on context.
Most basic factors are that an AH64 can be fitted with either Stinger or Starstreak missiles so can engage air targets. It's chain gun will also be marginally effective against air targets a fighter attempting a gun kill is very much rolling the dice.
The AH64 also has defensive systems, the radar has a short range air search mode, it can detect fighter radar emissions and even detect a close range missile shot.
The context is very important, how do the aircraft meet, what are their missions, what jet is it and how are they equipped?
In current combat operations they are probably not expecting an air threat, the pilots haven't been trained for it and I doubt that they have the air to air missile capability maintained.
So if we have a few scenarios, attack helicopter operating over open country or desert.
There are no battlefield management assets like AWACS in the air and ground based radar is far back and switched off due to SEAD capabilities of the opposition.
The fighter is qued into position by ground intelligence reports from the forces the helicopter attacked. It picks the helicopter up on it's radar and launches a radar guided missile.
The fighter radar operates in LPI mode so the most the helicopter knows is that a radar just painted them briefly, no alarms will be going off. When the fighters missile gets within about five miles it switches on it's own radar, at which point the helicopters ECM system goes nuts it fires chaff manoeuvring, there is very little chance you will even see the missile coming never mind evade it.
If the helicopter is supported and warned of the approach the helicopter will normally withdraw ideally via a terrain masking route, depending on the situation simply landing may make the helicopter a virtually impossible object for a fighter to find.
The key factor is that a modern fighter is unlikely to come into the weapons radius of a helicopter, and the helicopter is far too slow to bring it to battle.
If we want to come up with a Hollywood script idea where we have a helicopter fully informed of where the fighter is, the fighter aircraft is prevented from flying at medium altitude to get a good look down angle on the helicopter and the fighter is dead set on attacking the helicopter.
In this scenario the fighter may find it very difficult to actually engage the helicopter. The helicopter may be able to duck out of sight behind buildings forcing the fighter to engage from another direction.
However the fighter takes quite a few seconds to change its direction of attack. The helicopter on the other hand can always keep its weapons trained on the fighter.
However even in this scenario the fighters short range missiles still vastly out range the helicopters and it can decoy and out manoeuvre the relatively light missiles the helicopter can fire back. If the fighter has off borsight missiles that can be targeted from the helmet then it is at a massive advantage.
The only scenarios where it might have an advantage would be if it was attacking an airfield and the fighters were taking off or landing or were at a massive technological disadvantage Vs the helicopter.
Most basic factors are that an AH64 can be fitted with either Stinger or Starstreak missiles so can engage air targets. It's chain gun will also be marginally effective against air targets a fighter attempting a gun kill is very much rolling the dice.
The AH64 also has defensive systems, the radar has a short range air search mode, it can detect fighter radar emissions and even detect a close range missile shot.
The context is very important, how do the aircraft meet, what are their missions, what jet is it and how are they equipped?
In current combat operations they are probably not expecting an air threat, the pilots haven't been trained for it and I doubt that they have the air to air missile capability maintained.
So if we have a few scenarios, attack helicopter operating over open country or desert.
There are no battlefield management assets like AWACS in the air and ground based radar is far back and switched off due to SEAD capabilities of the opposition.
The fighter is qued into position by ground intelligence reports from the forces the helicopter attacked. It picks the helicopter up on it's radar and launches a radar guided missile.
The fighter radar operates in LPI mode so the most the helicopter knows is that a radar just painted them briefly, no alarms will be going off. When the fighters missile gets within about five miles it switches on it's own radar, at which point the helicopters ECM system goes nuts it fires chaff manoeuvring, there is very little chance you will even see the missile coming never mind evade it.
If the helicopter is supported and warned of the approach the helicopter will normally withdraw ideally via a terrain masking route, depending on the situation simply landing may make the helicopter a virtually impossible object for a fighter to find.
The key factor is that a modern fighter is unlikely to come into the weapons radius of a helicopter, and the helicopter is far too slow to bring it to battle.
If we want to come up with a Hollywood script idea where we have a helicopter fully informed of where the fighter is, the fighter aircraft is prevented from flying at medium altitude to get a good look down angle on the helicopter and the fighter is dead set on attacking the helicopter.
In this scenario the fighter may find it very difficult to actually engage the helicopter. The helicopter may be able to duck out of sight behind buildings forcing the fighter to engage from another direction.
However the fighter takes quite a few seconds to change its direction of attack. The helicopter on the other hand can always keep its weapons trained on the fighter.
However even in this scenario the fighters short range missiles still vastly out range the helicopters and it can decoy and out manoeuvre the relatively light missiles the helicopter can fire back. If the fighter has off borsight missiles that can be targeted from the helmet then it is at a massive advantage.
The only scenarios where it might have an advantage would be if it was attacking an airfield and the fighters were taking off or landing or were at a massive technological disadvantage Vs the helicopter.
t film. I seem to remember reading about a bbmf spitfire that bounced a phantom during an exercise and was judged to have shot it down. Apparently the phantoms were carrying out an air defence exercise and had invited all comers to take them on, and the boss of the bbmf flight on his way back from an air show took them on and caught one napping.
louiechevy said:
I seem to remember reading about a bbmf spitfire that bounced a phantom during an exercise and was judged to have shot it down. Apparently the phantoms were carrying out an air defence exercise and had invited all comers to take them on, and the boss of the bbmf flight on his way back from an air show took them on and caught one napping.
Probably came out of the sun 
https://youtu.be/1Z4DZU8aFMc
ecsrobin said:
Whilst not attacking, British military helicopters do practice fighter evasion up at spadeadam I believe generally vs a hawk.
Reminds me of a story in Sharky Ward's autobiography about hearing an RAF pilot who had flown a C130 bragging in a bar about how he had been trained to evade an Argentine Mirage and then interjecting to explain how he himself had shot down a C130 and how easy it had been.I imagine said training is probably about frustrating a relatively simple fighter threat rather than surviving in a complex ECM environment where beyond visual range or beyond line of sight weapons are being fired.
Talksteer said:
Reminds me of a story in Sharky Ward's autobiography about hearing an RAF pilot who had flown a C130 bragging in a bar about how he had been trained to evade an Argentine Mirage and then interjecting to explain how he himself had shot down a C130 and how easy it had been.
I imagine said training is probably about frustrating a relatively simple fighter threat rather than surviving in a complex ECM environment where beyond visual range or beyond line of sight weapons are being fired.
I would take Lt Cdr Ward's comments with a very large pinch of salt. His account of the shoot down in his book is different from that in the 801 NAS History, which is different to the original combat report (which I read before my first deployment on 1312 Flt down South).I imagine said training is probably about frustrating a relatively simple fighter threat rather than surviving in a complex ECM environment where beyond visual range or beyond line of sight weapons are being fired.
A well flown C-130 (at low level) can piss on a fighter pilot's chips.
F4 being tracked by a 1312 Flt Albert:
http://village.photos/images/user/dd094521-d044-40...
Using CMANO and a low level engagement between a Ka-50 and an A-10 it came up with the following outcome:
simulation said:
21/07/2018 19:06:03: Contact: BOGEY #1 has been classified as: A-10A Thunderbolt II - Determined as: Hostile (Classification by: Ka-50 Hokum A [Black Shark] [Sensor: Generic FLIR] at 14.7 nm)
21/07/2018 19:07:43: Gun (30mm 2A42 Burst [20 rnds]) is attacking A-10A Thunderbolt II with a base-Ph of 70%. Base-Ph adjusted for distance: 59.1%. A-10A Thunderbolt II has nominal agility: 3.5, adjusted for altitude: 3.5. Agility adjusted for proficiency (Regular): 2.8. Aircraft has a weight fraction of 0.37 - Agility adjusted to 2.19. Agility adjusted for forward-oblique impact effect: 1.5. Final agility modifier: -15%. Final Ph: 44%. Result: 11 - HIT
21/07/2018 19:07:43: Contact A-10A Thunderbolt II #1 has been lost.
For MiG-21bis vs MD500 the result came out a bit different:21/07/2018 19:07:43: Gun (30mm 2A42 Burst [20 rnds]) is attacking A-10A Thunderbolt II with a base-Ph of 70%. Base-Ph adjusted for distance: 59.1%. A-10A Thunderbolt II has nominal agility: 3.5, adjusted for altitude: 3.5. Agility adjusted for proficiency (Regular): 2.8. Aircraft has a weight fraction of 0.37 - Agility adjusted to 2.19. Agility adjusted for forward-oblique impact effect: 1.5. Final agility modifier: -15%. Final Ph: 44%. Result: 11 - HIT
21/07/2018 19:07:43: Contact A-10A Thunderbolt II #1 has been lost.
simulation said:
21/07/2018 19:15:07: New contact! Designated BOGEY #2 - Detected by MiG-21bis Fishbed N [Sensors: Jay Bird [RP-22M Sapfir-22]] at 97deg - 4.6nm
21/07/2018 19:15:28: Contact: BOGEY #2 has been type-classified as: Transport (Classification by: MiG-21bis Fishbed N (MiG-21bis Fishbed N) [Sensor: Mk1 Eyeball] at 1.1 nm)
21/07/2018 19:15:31: Contact: Transport #2 has been classified as: OH-6A Cayuse [MD-500D] - Determined as: Hostile (Classification by: MiG-21bis Fishbed N [Sensor: Mk1 Eyeball] at 0.6 nm)
21/07/2018 19:16:45: Gun (23mm Gsh-23L Burst [40 rnds]) is attacking OH-6A Cayuse [MD-500D] with a base-Ph of 65%. Base-Ph adjusted for distance: 55.6%. OH-6A Cayuse [MD-500D] has nominal agility: 1, adjusted for altitude: 1. Agility adjusted for proficiency (Regular): 0.8. Aircraft has a weight fraction of 0.12 - Agility adjusted to 0.74. Agility adjusted for head-on impact effect: 0.4. Final agility modifier: -4%. Final Ph: 52%. Result: 97 - MISS
21/07/2018 19:17:42: Weapon: AA-8 Aphid [R-60T] #5 is attacking OH-6A Cayuse [MD-500D] with a base PH of 80%. Final PH: 80%. Result: 80 - HIT
21/07/2018 19:17:42: Contact OH-6A Cayuse [MD-500D] #2 has been lost.
So yes and no, I guess.21/07/2018 19:15:28: Contact: BOGEY #2 has been type-classified as: Transport (Classification by: MiG-21bis Fishbed N (MiG-21bis Fishbed N) [Sensor: Mk1 Eyeball] at 1.1 nm)
21/07/2018 19:15:31: Contact: Transport #2 has been classified as: OH-6A Cayuse [MD-500D] - Determined as: Hostile (Classification by: MiG-21bis Fishbed N [Sensor: Mk1 Eyeball] at 0.6 nm)
21/07/2018 19:16:45: Gun (23mm Gsh-23L Burst [40 rnds]) is attacking OH-6A Cayuse [MD-500D] with a base-Ph of 65%. Base-Ph adjusted for distance: 55.6%. OH-6A Cayuse [MD-500D] has nominal agility: 1, adjusted for altitude: 1. Agility adjusted for proficiency (Regular): 0.8. Aircraft has a weight fraction of 0.12 - Agility adjusted to 0.74. Agility adjusted for head-on impact effect: 0.4. Final agility modifier: -4%. Final Ph: 52%. Result: 97 - MISS
21/07/2018 19:17:42: Weapon: AA-8 Aphid [R-60T] #5 is attacking OH-6A Cayuse [MD-500D] with a base PH of 80%. Final PH: 80%. Result: 80 - HIT
21/07/2018 19:17:42: Contact OH-6A Cayuse [MD-500D] #2 has been lost.
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
Talksteer said:
Reminds me of a story in Sharky Ward's autobiography about hearing an RAF pilot who had flown a C130 bragging in a bar about how he had been trained to evade an Argentine Mirage and then interjecting to explain how he himself had shot down a C130 and how easy it had been.
I imagine said training is probably about frustrating a relatively simple fighter threat rather than surviving in a complex ECM environment where beyond visual range or beyond line of sight weapons are being fired.
I would take Lt Cdr Ward's comments with a very large pinch of salt. His account of the shoot down in his book is different from that in the 801 NAS History, which is different to the original combat report (which I read before my first deployment on 1312 Flt down South).I imagine said training is probably about frustrating a relatively simple fighter threat rather than surviving in a complex ECM environment where beyond visual range or beyond line of sight weapons are being fired.
A well flown C-130 (at low level) can piss on a fighter pilot's chips.
F4 being tracked by a 1312 Flt Albert:
http://village.photos/images/user/dd094521-d044-40...
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