Why is the same train late almost every day?

Why is the same train late almost every day?

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Riley Blue

Original Poster:

20,915 posts

225 months

Tuesday 6th November 2018
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O/H catches the 6:17 Nottingham to Leeds train at Chesterfield. Most days it's late, today by six minutes but usually by two or three. I'm curious about the reason, could anyone enlighten me please?

Chimune

3,164 posts

222 months

Tuesday 6th November 2018
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I'm standing waiting for my train which has been consistently 6 mins late for last 6 months.
Why don't they just update the timetable?


Edited by Chimune on Tuesday 6th November 07:44

Gareth1974

3,408 posts

138 months

Tuesday 6th November 2018
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It tends to start on time at Nottingham and often loses a bit of time in running to Chesterfield for various reasons, but in 1 minute increments which tend not to be investigated .

Today, lost time in running with clear signals en route to Chesterfield after a right time start.

Yesterday, had a slower than booked unit on.

02/11 - lost a couple of minutes in running, but below the threshold to be investigated

01/11 - 4 late at Chesterfield, low adhesion reported en route

31/10 - Ran on time

30/10 - Started 2 late, 2 late still at Chesterfield

29/10 - lost a couple of minutes in running, but below the threshold to be investigated

Chimune

3,164 posts

222 months

Tuesday 6th November 2018
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My train arrived 6 mins late again.
It's now hideously overcrowded. It's also a 1980s Pacer. Lucky me....

untakenname

4,953 posts

191 months

Tuesday 6th November 2018
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Lots of the time it's so faster non stopping or more important (in the eyes of the industry) trains can have a clear run, I used to get the train to Bedford and it was hardly ever delayed, now after the changes to services earlier this year it terminates in Blackfriars and it's forever being held up so other trains can go by.
This site is useful for getting proper data on timetabling, don't trust national rails livetiming http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/


hammo19

4,901 posts

195 months

Tuesday 6th November 2018
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Higher priority trains was an all too regular thing on South Eastern when the Eurostar was running on the mainline out of Waterloo before the High Speed line was established out of St Pancras. Sitting at Headcorn for 15 mins was a regular feature of a 90 minute journey home.

55palfers

5,893 posts

163 months

Tuesday 6th November 2018
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BrabusMog

20,083 posts

185 months

Tuesday 6th November 2018
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I take a train from Reading to Gatwick once every 10 days or so and it is nearly always delayed for two reasons:

1. The service is the first stop and can't run before the previous train arrives - this train is scheduled to arrive 3 mins prior to the Reading to Gatwick service.

2. It follows a stopping service that is also usually delayed, so it gets held outside at least one station to let the stopping service pull out enough of a gap between the two trains.

Bloody annoying, but better than the M25 at rush hour!

AppleJuice

2,154 posts

84 months

Tuesday 6th November 2018
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55palfers said:
That's a nice dress Joan, is it new?

theplayingmantis

3,721 posts

81 months

Tuesday 6th November 2018
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Basically the timetable cannot be met.

Same thing on greater anglia line.

The intercity trains to Norwich are so archaic they still have slam doors and thus never leave Norwich or Liverpool Street on time. Ever. Norwich it doesn't cause so many problems as its not a busy station, but leaving Liverpool street it knocks on to every train service for the next hour or so. Its incredibly annoying as they are late for such a stupid reason - old rolling stock.

Likewise they are given priority over other train no matter how late they are running. I assume as the delay repay for Norwich tickets will hit them harder than on the intermediary stations trains. (not that delay repay costs them anything as they claim it all back and more from the idiots that are Network Rail i believe)

also whilst im ranting NR are dire, awful organization and when you see any of these charming characters you will no why the infrastructure is so poor, be it imbecilic managers, or don't care 'laborers' (not sure of correct phrase they call themselves - Navvy)

Riley Blue

Original Poster:

20,915 posts

225 months

Tuesday 6th November 2018
quotequote all
Gareth1974 said:
It tends to start on time at Nottingham and often loses a bit of time in running to Chesterfield for various reasons, but in 1 minute increments which tend not to be investigated .

Today, lost time in running with clear signals en route to Chesterfield after a right time start.

Yesterday, had a slower than booked unit on.

02/11 - lost a couple of minutes in running, but below the threshold to be investigated

01/11 - 4 late at Chesterfield, low adhesion reported en route

31/10 - Ran on time

30/10 - Started 2 late, 2 late still at Chesterfield

29/10 - lost a couple of minutes in running, but below the threshold to be investigated
Thanks for that. The 'lost a couple of minutes in running' seems to be a regular feature of this train but that's explained by it being a stopping train.

Pacman1978

394 posts

102 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
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Chimune said:
It's also a 1980s Pacer. Lucky me....
Seeing that contraption of a museum reject mentioned reminds me of the one and only time I had the displeasure, 13 years ago.. It was laughably ste back then..


rs1952

5,247 posts

258 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
Riley Blue said:
Gareth1974 said:
It tends to start on time at Nottingham and often loses a bit of time in running to Chesterfield for various reasons, but in 1 minute increments which tend not to be investigated .

Today, lost time in running with clear signals en route to Chesterfield after a right time start.

Yesterday, had a slower than booked unit on.

02/11 - lost a couple of minutes in running, but below the threshold to be investigated

01/11 - 4 late at Chesterfield, low adhesion reported en route

31/10 - Ran on time

30/10 - Started 2 late, 2 late still at Chesterfield

29/10 - lost a couple of minutes in running, but below the threshold to be investigated
Thanks for that. The 'lost a couple of minutes in running' seems to be a regular feature of this train but that's explained by it being a stopping train.
I think Gareth is the only railway insider that has posted so far (judging by the amount of misinformation in many of the posts wink ) I am no longer an insider, but I’ll add a few general observations on some of the fundamentals, many of which are based on personal observation and experience.

Firstly I had a 14-day all line rail rover back in July, using it to revisit old haunts from 50 years ago at the end of steam traction on BR. As I was downloading the timing information from Realtime Trains anyway, I did an analysis on timekeeping. This was not particularly scientific as it only observed trains that I used personally. The results were interesting, showing that average delays were relatively small. GWR came out worst with an average delay at my alighting station of 7.35 minutes, having lost an average of just over 4 minutes from my originating station. Conversely, Northern with all its timetable problems at the time, cancelled more trains than anyone else but the ones they did run tended to keep to time.

If anyone id interested in my research [lease PM me and I will send the spreadsheet - I tried copying and pasting it into this message and, as I suspected,it lost the column structure and was unreadable.

Being retired and finding something here to help keep the brain alive, I then did an analysis of a complete week’s service at my local station (Chippenham). All services here are operated by GWR. I found that the picture was not quite as bleak when carried out at that level of details, but did show an average delay of just over 4 minutes for all trains over that week (although to be fair it was the week that the wires wrapped themselves around a train at Hanwell so that didn’t help punctuality and cancellations).

Looking more at the detail it became clear that certain specific trains were often bad timekeepers – for example the 0630 Paddington to Bristol ran late far more often than it ran on time, and quite significantly so on occasions. There were other specific trains in the middle of the day too (ie. at off peak times). Now, if I can find these things out from publicly-available information (OK you have to dig a bit to get it) I am convinced that the TOC could see these trends as well. The question is then begged what are they doing about it, and it’s probably a question at a level of detail that will never be released to the public because, in essence, only nerds like me would be interested. Most people only want to know about timekeeping for their own trains.

Finally, it is an unfortunate truth that if you are on a late-running train, the chances are that it will get more late as the journey progresses. This is deliberate railway policy and has been virtually since railways were invented – other trains should not be delayed to give priority to trains already running late, because of you do that the poor timekeeping spreads in much the same way as an infectious disease. Overall timekeeping benefits from “quarantining” the late runner.


Riley Blue

Original Poster:

20,915 posts

225 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
Thank you Robin, for your very informative post.

I quizzed my O/H last night to find out why she prefers the 'almost always late' Northern train to the Birmingham to Glasgow train a few minutes later which is rarely delayed. It turns out the one she catches uses platform 1 at Sheffield so it's a quick out of the train, across the platform and out of the station. The later train, though more punctual, stops at a different platform which means she has to climb the stairs to cross the tracks then descend another set of stairs - as she walks almost four miles to and from stations daily I suppose there's a logic to that.


theplayingmantis

3,721 posts

81 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
rs1952 said:
Finally, it is an unfortunate truth that if you are on a late-running train, the chances are that it will get more late as the journey progresses. This is deliberate railway policy and has been virtually since railways were invented – other trains should not be delayed to give priority to trains already running late, because of you do that the poor timekeeping spreads in much the same way as an infectious disease. Overall timekeeping benefits from “quarantining” the late runner.
incorrect on Greater Anglia. On time trains are held for always late Intercity Norwich trains. Likewise the merge point at Shenfield, if a train on one line is late the other isnt allowed to go in front. Buggering up everyone else simply because one train is late.

rs1952

5,247 posts

258 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
theplayingmantis said:
rs1952 said:
Finally, it is an unfortunate truth that if you are on a late-running train, the chances are that it will get more late as the journey progresses. This is deliberate railway policy and has been virtually since railways were invented – other trains should not be delayed to give priority to trains already running late, because of you do that the poor timekeeping spreads in much the same way as an infectious disease. Overall timekeeping benefits from “quarantining” the late runner.
incorrect on Greater Anglia. On time trains are held for always late Intercity Norwich trains. Likewise the merge point at Shenfield, if a train on one line is late the other isnt allowed to go in front. Buggering up everyone else simply because one train is late.
You did notice my use of the phrase "the chances are" wink

I was talking general railway policy. You will of course find exceptions based on local conditions and the circumstances applying to the trains in question. There might also be things going on in the background that you aren't being made aware of. Here is an example:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C42865/2018/...

This train, the 0853 from Swindon to Westbury, is shown in the Working Timetable as being held at Bradford Junction for some 5 minutes whilst two trains running from Bath towards Westbury are given priority. If the guard hasn't made an announcement about this, the unknowing punter on the train may think that the train is being held for two late trains to get in front, when actually that is not the case. As it happened this morning, the train was running 5.75 late leaving Melksham and, as you will see from the log,that late running "mysteriously" vanished by the time it got to Trowbridge. Well, if you were on that train this morning, now you know why smile

Bradford Junction would in fact be a good example to use in my other scenario. Let's say a Cardiff to Portsmouth train is running 10 late and a train from Swindon is booked to follow it 8 minutes later. As it turns out they both arrive at the junction at much the same time, but with the Swindon getting there, say, a minute or so before the Cardiff to Portsmouth. The Portsmouth train still has the best part of 100 miles to travel to its destination, navigating through mazes of lines and other trains at Westbury, Salisbury, Southampton, St Denys, Fareham and the final stretch on Portsea Island. Conversely the Swindon to Westbury only has two stops left before journey's end, a mere 5 miles away. In that case, it would make sense to send the Pompey train through first so as not to cause it further delay and. as long as the Swindon is let out straight behind it, any passengers on it heading in the Portsmouth direction can still make their connection with the train at Westbury while its standing there.

Making split-second decisions on conflicting movements like this is what keeps the railway operating day by day and not plunging it into absolute chaos. The people doing this job are called Controllers. If I was a betting man I'd put money on Gareth 1974 being in Control, or at least working in close liaison with them smile

Gareth1974

3,408 posts

138 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
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[quote=rs1952
Making split-second decisions on conflicting movements like this is what keeps the railway operating day by day and not plunging it into absolute chaos. The people doing this job are called Controllers. If I was a betting man I'd put money on Gareth 1974 being in Control, or at least working in close liaison with them smile

[/quote]

Good guess, I’m a Train Running Controller

theplayingmantis

3,721 posts

81 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
rs1952 said:
You did notice my use of the phrase "the chances are" wink

I was talking general railway policy. You will of course find exceptions based on local conditions and the circumstances applying to the trains in question. There might also be things going on in the background that you aren't being made aware of. Here is an example:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C42865/2018/...

This train, the 0853 from Swindon to Westbury, is shown in the Working Timetable as being held at Bradford Junction for some 5 minutes whilst two trains running from Bath towards Westbury are given priority. If the guard hasn't made an announcement about this, the unknowing punter on the train may think that the train is being held for two late trains to get in front, when actually that is not the case. As it happened this morning, the train was running 5.75 late leaving Melksham and, as you will see from the log,that late running "mysteriously" vanished by the time it got to Trowbridge. Well, if you were on that train this morning, now you know why smile

Bradford Junction would in fact be a good example to use in my other scenario. Let's say a Cardiff to Portsmouth train is running 10 late and a train from Swindon is booked to follow it 8 minutes later. As it turns out they both arrive at the junction at much the same time, but with the Swindon getting there, say, a minute or so before the Cardiff to Portsmouth. The Portsmouth train still has the best part of 100 miles to travel to its destination, navigating through mazes of lines and other trains at Westbury, Salisbury, Southampton, St Denys, Fareham and the final stretch on Portsea Island. Conversely the Swindon to Westbury only has two stops left before journey's end, a mere 5 miles away. In that case, it would make sense to send the Pompey train through first so as not to cause it further delay and. as long as the Swindon is let out straight behind it, any passengers on it heading in the Portsmouth direction can still make their connection with the train at Westbury while its standing there.

Making split-second decisions on conflicting movements like this is what keeps the railway operating day by day and not plunging it into absolute chaos. The people doing this job are called Controllers. If I was a betting man I'd put money on Gareth 1974 being in Control, or at least working in close liaison with them smile
wink controllers on my line are all wkers! wink

no offence to any non GA controllers.

Gareth1974

3,408 posts

138 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
theplayingmantis said:
wink controllers on my line are all wkers! wink

no offence to any non GA controllers.
I imagine they’re implementing the policy they are told to do, which is usually whatever the DfT want.

rs1952

5,247 posts

258 months

Wednesday 7th November 2018
quotequote all
Gareth1974 said:
rs1952 said:
Making split-second decisions on conflicting movements like this is what keeps the railway operating day by day and not plunging it into absolute chaos. The people doing this job are called Controllers. If I was a betting man I'd put money on Gareth 1974 being in Control, or at least working in close liaison with them smile
Good guess, I’m a Train Running Controller
It was based on your knowing the minutiae of the reasons for late running on a daily basis. Today it was Chesterfield, on a previous occasion it was Chester to Stockport. As Michael Caine might have said, not a lot of people would know that smile