Why is the same train late almost every day?

[DIW35]

Gareth1974 said:

Have just looked at the Rainham one so far. It does look tight, so I looked up the Timetable planning rules. which show a increase in the planning headways for this location to take effect in the next timetable.

The 0640-0642 train is retimed in the next timetable to be 0643-0644.

Are they going to re-time 1T06 and 5L16 at Stroud which will now clash with the re-timed 1F11?

Here’s another. 2K72 is booked to leave Rochester at 07:56 on the Up. 1C10 is booked over Rochester Bridge Junction on the Down at the same time. However the route can’t be set for 1C10 over the junction until 2K62 clears the crossover. 1C10 always picks up a delay as a result.

Edited by DIW35 on Monday 12th November 08:00

[Gareth1974]

DIW35 said:

Are they going to re-time 1T06 and 5L16 at Stroud which will now clash with the re-timed 1F11?

Edited by DIW35 on Monday 12th November 08:00

1F11's Strood time changes from 0658 to 0659, 1T06 and 1F11 are unaltered

[Gareth1974]

DIW35 said:

Are they going to re-time 1T06 and 5L16 at Stroud which will now clash with the re-timed 1F11?

Here’s another. 2K72 is booked to leave Rochester at 07:56 on the Up. 1C10 is booked over Rochester Bridge Junction on the Down at the same time. However the route can’t be set for 1C10 over the junction until 2K62 clears the crossover. 1C10 always picks up a delay as a result.

Edited by DIW35 on Monday 12th November 08:00

Can't see any changes in the pipeline for these two trains - though looking at their performance over the last couple of days, they are shown as being on time anyway.

[Riley Blue]

To return to my original point; towards the end of last week my O/H decided to catch the 7:02 train (Birmingham to Glasgow) instead of the frequently late 6:54 (Nottingham to Leeds). By yesterday she had resigned herself to getting on whichever of the two arrived at Chesterfield first, the 7:02 also having arrived late once or twice.

[AnotherGuy]

rs1952 said:

Just give me the times of one of the trains (eg. 0800 Liverpool St to Norwich, or the local service involved) together with the location which could be approximate (eg "at Shenfield" or "between Marks Tey and Colchester"), and some dates when these things were observed.

I'm looking forward to a "dig around." Perhaps Gareth is as well!

Hopefully I can help with this. I catch the 07:08 or 07:13 from Colchester to Liverpool St and they are both frequently held whilst waiting for the late running 07:05 Norwich to Liverpool St mainline to arrive. Probably happens once every 2 weeks.

[rs1952]

AnotherGuy said:

Hopefully I can help with this. I catch the 07:08 or 07:13 from Colchester to Liverpool St and they are both frequently held whilst waiting for the late running 07:05 Norwich to Liverpool St mainline to arrive. Probably happens once every 2 weeks.

As I said earlier in this yjread, the old GE main line is not a route I am intimately familiar with. However, from the clues on Realtime Trains and Google Street View it appears that there is a long double-track section beyond Colchester, with no possibility of faster trains being able to pass slower trains until at least Witham loop (12 miles away and only if it's suitable for passenger trains to use) Ingatstone loop (28 miles away and ditto re the condition of the track in it) or Shenfield (31 miles away).

The Norwich is non-stop from Colchester to Liverpool St, whilst the two locals stop at various stations on their way towards London. To put this in context, the Norwich is allowed 26.5 minutes from Colchester to passing Shenfield, whilst the 0708 and 0713 are allowed 33.5 and 34 minutes respectively. Given the physical practicalities on that line, I can see why the late-running Norwich might be given priority in some circumstances.

[theplayingmantis]

rs1952 said:

As I said earlier in this yjread, the old GE main line is not a route I am intimately familiar with. However, from the clues on Realtime Trains and Google Street View it appears that there is a long double-track section beyond Colchester, with no possibility of faster trains being able to pass slower trains until at least Witham loop (12 miles away and only if it's suitable for passenger trains to use) Ingatstone loop (28 miles away and ditto re the condition of the track in it) or Shenfield (31 miles away).

The Norwich is non-stop from Colchester to Liverpool St, whilst the two locals stop at various stations on their way towards London. To put this in context, the Norwich is allowed 26.5 minutes from Colchester to passing Shenfield, whilst the 0708 and 0713 are allowed 33.5 and 34 minutes respectively. Given the physical practicalities on that line, I can see why the late-running Norwich might be given priority in some circumstances.

so basically your original conviction that its rarely done and there's other reasons is wrong ...and thus proves GA are a bunch of *****s!

not a criticism of your original opinion, just saying that in fact us poor bstards who suffer death by a million cuts on that line have justifiable gripes against the controllers as i originally postulated!

[Gareth1974]

theplayingmantis said:

just saying that in fact us poor bstards who suffer death by a million cuts on that line have justifiable gripes against the controllers as i originally postulated!

Or the regulation policy the controller is obliged to work to?

[rs1952]

theplayingmantis said:

so basically your original conviction that its rarely done and there's other reasons is wrong ...and thus proves GA are a bunch of *****s!

not a criticism of your original opinion, just saying that in fact us poor bstards who suffer death by a million cuts on that line have justifiable gripes against the controllers as i originally postulated!

You can have your score point if you like

But I did cover myself on page 1 as copied in below:

rs1952 said:

You did notice my use of the phrase "the chances are"

I was talking general railway policy. You will of course find exceptions based on local conditions and the circumstances applying to the trains in question. There might also be things going on in the background that you aren't being made aware of.

There will be some circumstances where a decision has to be taken as to which trains get priority. As we discussed earlier, that is the job of Control.

The trouble is with this one is my relative lack of knowledge of the GE main line, but I will do a bit of postulating - they can't touch you for it these days...

The Norwich is supposed to leave Colchester at 0705, three minutes before the Clacton, and then show it a clean pair of heels. It is booked to pass Colchester at 0732. The Clacton stops at Kelvedon and Chelmsford and takes until 0741 to get to Shenfield. It is therefore booked 6 minutes slower than the Norwich between those two points. The 0713 from Colchester, originating at Ipswich, is booked to call at Marks Tey, Chelmsford and Ingatestone, and passes Shenfield at 0802.

It therefore follows that if the trains leave Colchester in sequence. if the Norwich is any more than 3 minutes late it would run behind the Clacton and be at least 10 minutes late by Shenfield. If it left behind the 0713 ex-Ipswich it would be 31 minutes late at Shenfield, and that would take it into delay compensation territory. It is becoming easier to see why the locals are being held for the Norwich - as long as it isn't too late. of course.

[colin_p]

The Marlow Donkey is frequently late and all it has to do is run back and forth on a single track, with no other trains, branch line. Mind boggling how it can be late.

[rs1952]

colin_p said:

The Marlow Donkey is frequently late and all it has to do is run back and forth on a single track, with no other trains, branch line. Mind boggling how it can be late.

The Realtime Trains log for yesterday does not concur with your statement "frequently late." This shows arrivals and departures from Bourne End: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BN...

The last three trains of Wednesday's service were a few minutes down, and one has to bear in mind that, as it is a shuttle service with very short terminus turnaround times, if an incoming train is late then the outgoing train will be too.

The first 15 trains of Thursday's service were bang on time in both directions. From that point on there were a few trains a few minutes late, but especially note the 0842 arrival from Maidenhead, which then forms the 0846 return service. The incoming train arrived 4 minutes late and the outgoing train also left 4 minutes late - and it is only a 4-minute turnaround, so see my comments in the previous paragraph.

From 0923 virtually everything was bang on time again until something fell over at the end of the peak - 4 or 5-minute delays appeare to have been the order of the day for the Maindenheads until 2057 but, as mentioned above, it's a shuttle so if one train is late than so will be the next one, and so on - the service is being worked by a single train. The last 2 trains before midnight were also 5 late - another out-and-back working.

My interpretation is that the delays yesterday were minimal and would not really be noticed by the vast majority of passengers. Those that will notice will be the few who have convinced themselves that the trains are always late, so this just confirms their prejudices

I was going to go into a list of things that cause out-of course delays but it doesn't seem worthwhile given this evidence, other than to say that many delays are caused by passengers being prats; quite a few are caused by equipment failure, and yet more are caused by rostering cock-ups and/or lack if staff

[colin_p]

rs1952 said:

colin_p said:

The Marlow Donkey is frequently late and all it has to do is run back and forth on a single track, with no other trains, branch line. Mind boggling how it can be late.

The Realtime Trains log for yesterday does not concur with your statement "frequently late." This shows arrivals and departures from Bourne End: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BN...

The last three trains of Wednesday's service were a few minutes down, and one has to bear in mind that, as it is a shuttle service with very short terminus turnaround times, if an incoming train is late then the outgoing train will be too.

The first 15 trains of Thursday's service were bang on time in both directions. From that point on there were a few trains a few minutes late, but especially note the 0842 arrival from Maidenhead, which then forms the 0846 return service. The incoming train arrived 4 minutes late and the outgoing train also left 4 minutes late - and it is only a 4-minute turnaround, so see my comments in the previous paragraph.

From 0923 virtually everything was bang on time again until something fell over at the end of the peak - 4 or 5-minute delays appeare to have been the order of the day for the Maindenheads until 2057 but, as mentioned above, it's a shuttle so if one train is late than so will be the next one, and so on - the service is being worked by a single train. The last 2 trains before midnight were also 5 late - another out-and-back working.

My interpretation is that the delays yesterday were minimal and would not really be noticed by the vast majority of passengers. Those that will notice will be the few who have convinced themselves that the trains are always late, so this just confirms their prejudices

I was going to go into a list of things that cause out-of course delays but it doesn't seem worthwhile given this evidence, other than to say that many delays are caused by passengers being prats; quite a few are caused by equipment failure, and yet more are caused by rostering cock-ups and/or lack if staff

Nice reply.

I use the line every day and it is often, but not always late. When Maidenhead bound timing is critical for any connecting train you need to catch, which is the case for most people.

Up to five is minutes is nothing in the scheme of things but when you miss your connection as a result, it matters.

More to my point though, how can something that goes back and forth on a singe line it shares with nothing else on it be late? (I'd like to see your list.) If it has a driver and the "token" it should be on time. Talking about the token, do you know anything more about it? My understanding is that the driver has to use a very large antiquated looking key to gain access to a locked phone which they have to call to gain permission to procede. Maybe, when it is late, nobody answers that phone quickly enough so it is a nope to toot-toot off we go?

Edited by colin_p on Friday 16th November 11:38

[theplayingmantis]

Gareth1974 said:

theplayingmantis said:

just saying that in fact us poor bstards who suffer death by a million cuts on that line have justifiable gripes against the controllers as i originally postulated!

Or the regulation policy the controller is obliged to work to?

in that case the policy is the ****, but im sure they are allowed some common sense surely.

[theplayingmantis]

rs1952 said:

theplayingmantis said:

so basically your original conviction that its rarely done and there's other reasons is wrong ...and thus proves GA are a bunch of *****s!

not a criticism of your original opinion, just saying that in fact us poor bstards who suffer death by a million cuts on that line have justifiable gripes against the controllers as i originally postulated!

You can have your score point if you like

But I did cover myself on page 1 as copied in below:

rs1952 said:

You did notice my use of the phrase "the chances are"

I was talking general railway policy. You will of course find exceptions based on local conditions and the circumstances applying to the trains in question. There might also be things going on in the background that you aren't being made aware of.

There will be some circumstances where a decision has to be taken as to which trains get priority. As we discussed earlier, that is the job of Control.

The trouble is with this one is my relative lack of knowledge of the GE main line, but I will do a bit of postulating - they can't touch you for it these days...

The Norwich is supposed to leave Colchester at 0705, three minutes before the Clacton, and then show it a clean pair of heels. It is booked to pass Colchester at 0732. The Clacton stops at Kelvedon and Chelmsford and takes until 0741 to get to Shenfield. It is therefore booked 6 minutes slower than the Norwich between those two points. The 0713 from Colchester, originating at Ipswich, is booked to call at Marks Tey, Chelmsford and Ingatestone, and passes Shenfield at 0802.

It therefore follows that if the trains leave Colchester in sequence. if the Norwich is any more than 3 minutes late it would run behind the Clacton and be at least 10 minutes late by Shenfield. If it left behind the 0713 ex-Ipswich it would be 31 minutes late at Shenfield, and that would take it into delay compensation territory. It is becoming easier to see why the locals are being held for the Norwich - as long as it isn't too late. of course.

thanks. still not on though. GA just looking at profit line. my hate is justified

prioritize the small minority of passengers (not sure of figures but doubt that many come all the way from Norwich, comparatively to the thousands who get on at intermediate termini) over the vast majority who are inconvenienced regularly by this stupid prioritization

[rs1952]

colin_p said:

Up to five is minutes is nothing in the scheme of things but when you miss your connection as a result, it matters.

More to my point though, how can something that goes back and forth on a singe line it shares with nothing else on it be late? (I'd like to see your list.) If it has a driver and the "token" it should be on time. Talking about the token, do you know anything more about it? My understanding is that the driver has to use a very large antiquated looking key to gain access to a locked phone which they have to call to gain permission to procede. Maybe, when it is late, nobody answers that phone quickly enough so it is a nope to toot-toot off we go?

But there are at least 4 trains an hour from Maidenhead on the main line towards both Paddington and Reading (for all points west) so, if you do miss a connection, another one will be along shortly.

A train shuttling up and down a single line can be late because (not a comprehensive list):

• Once it becomes late it is easy for it to stay late on subsequent journeys because there is no recovery time in the timetable
• It can become late in the first place because of actions or inactions by passengers, system faults (eg. problems with closing the doors, blowing the brakes off)
• Infrastructure problems eg. (conflicting movements resulting in the signaller not being able to set the road for the train; signalling failures; adhesion problems - usually known as "leaves on the line" at this time of year
• Staff problems (eg driver not turning up for duty; station staff at Maidenhead tardy at giving "right away"

Just a few to be going on with.

Signalling has never been my strong point so hopefully someone else will be along shortly to give some fuller details on that. However the days of using a physical single line token have gone in many cases. I have no idea what system is used on the Marlow branch.It's not impossible that it still is, but I would have thought that if it hadn't been dispensed with donkey's years ago it would have been more recently with the GWR electrification programme.

The "locked box" will have very little to do with with contacting the signaller I would imagine, as signaller to driver on board communication is in use these days. If all else fails there's your mobile phone... I suspect this locked box is at Bourne End and contains the lever or unlocking device to switch the points to the Marlow section which requires the train to reverse. I notice that in the peak this movement is now being overcome by running two separate trains (Maidenhead to Bourne End, and Bourne End to Marlow). The train doing the Marlow shuttle would be "locked in" during its period of operation.

[P5BNij]

Does the Marlow Donkey still run into its own bay platform at Bourne end...? I haven't been for years, I know it used to do this when my Mrs' Dad used the line most days in the '50s and early '60s when it consisted of a 14xx tank and an autocoach.

[rs1952]

P5BNij said:

Does the Marlow Donkey still run into its own bay platform at Bourne end...? I haven't been for years, I know it used to do this when my Mrs' Dad used the line most days in the '50s and early '60s when it consisted of a 14xx tank and an autocoach.

This information was actually in he link I posted to Bourne End arrivals and departures, but here it is again: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BN...

When running as two separate services. the Marlow trains leave from platform 2 and the Maidenhead ones use platform 1. Outside of the peak when it runs as a through service they all use platform 2

[rs1952]

theplayingmantis said:

thanks. still not on though. GA just looking at profit line. my hate is justified

prioritize the small minority of passengers (not sure of figures but doubt that many come all the way from Norwich, comparatively to the thousands who get on at intermediate termini) over the vast majority who are inconvenienced regularly by this stupid prioritization

Just a final point on this. I notice that the Norwich is due into Liverpool Street at 0758, and then leaves again to back to Norwich at 0830. Whilst its there i will need to be prepared (ie. cleaned, possibly watered and possibly have old seat reservations taken down and new ones put up - if they still use the removable card tickets in that coaching stock).

Whilst 32 minutes isn't a rapid turnaround for such things, reducing it to 20 or even 1 minute in the case of the train running out of Colchester behind the 0713, would bugger up the next working for that stock beautifully

(And before you ask, no there ain't no "spare sets kicking around" any more - Beeching saw to that a long, long. time ago... )

[SWTH]

rs1952 said:

(And before you ask, no there ain't no "spare sets kicking around" any more - Beeching saw to that a long, long. time ago... )

And what little was left got seen off back in the 1990s. TOCs don't have spare stock hanging around for two reasons - firstly to have trains sat there doing nowt costs money because they've almost all got to be rented from a ROSCO, and secondly because in the case of Diesel Multiple Units there aren't any spare. Every 2nd generation DMU in existence is in use, even the Pacers aren't going yet. Things are so bad that one solution has been to start slinging diesel engines under 30-year old electric units (the 769 project) as a stopgap until new DMUs arrive.

Back in the day there used to be a pair of Mk1 BSKs that spent most of their time doing not a great deal at Exeter Riverside Yard. However, they were usable and did get used as a stand in when a DMU was unavailable - quite often going to Barnstaple and back hauled by a 50. They didn't owe anything, had no rental payments and maintenance was minimal cost, but they could provide a service when availability was stretched. Shame we can't do that now.

With regard to regulation of certain trains for others to take priority it very much has to be looked at in 'bigger picture' mode. As an example last year I wanted a High Speed service held by 5 mins for another late-running (and mechanically ailing) HS service to connect with it so I could get the passengers transferred across. I was told no by Control, despite the local issues it caused with a trainload of passengers who had to wait for the next service instead. Whilst 5 mins wasn't a problem in the West Country it meant it was well out of place for its slot to run into Paddington and to quote the Duty Control Manager 'would have been fked more times than a virgin on her wedding night' with regards to getting held for other trains to run on time. That 5 min could have easily turned into 30 mins at Pad, which would then stuff the next service it was meant to form, delaying other trains around it... you get the idea. The snowball effect can build up very quickly.

[hurstg01]

There is a website that someone linked to on PH that show, after you have input the relevant data, what trains within the parameters you specify will qualify for the delay repay compensation scheme up t 30 days from that date you enter

Given the dire service from SWR today, thought I'd finally give it a go and try to claim for not just today [if possible, as they might escape by saying it was due to planned engineering works that overran] but for any other trains that may have been late over the past 30 days, of which I am sure there were at least 3 for my route but I cant remember the precise times....

Does anyone know of that link and can put it up here?