Deltic engine origins surprised me

Deltic engine origins surprised me

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Discussion

Yertis

18,015 posts

265 months

Wednesday 6th March 2019
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What was the purpose of the 'second man'? I used to see them riding in diesels, then one day *gone*.

2xChevrons

3,159 posts

79 months

Wednesday 6th March 2019
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Yertis said:
What was the purpose of the 'second man'? I used to see them riding in diesels, then one day *gone*.
Mostly their purpose was to provide employment and satisfy the unions as BR made the switch from steam (where two-man crews are a neccessity) to diesel/electric (where it isn't). AIUI some of their jobs were the same as fireman on steamers - helping the driver spot/confirm signals, being the one to walk to the signal box if needed and so on. They were also responsible for keeping the on-board boiler for the steam heating system topped up and working (or, more accurately, being the one to shut it down when it inevitably broke).

Same as freight guards - in the days of unfitted trains you needed a man on the back to operate the van brake, in case a coupling broke and to keep the tail lamps lit. With the move to fully-fitted trains they weren't so crucial, although they were still handy from a safety perspective. Then an agreement was reached where guards could ride in the rear cab of the locomotive, and then they were got rid of entirely, replaced by a battery-operated flashing red light on the last wagon.

rs1952

5,247 posts

258 months

Wednesday 6th March 2019
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Yertis said:
What was the purpose of the 'second man'? I used to see them riding in diesels, then one day *gone*.
First generation diesels were fitted with a steam boiler for heating the train, and they were responsible for looking after those.

There was also the issue about ASLEF wanting 2 men in the cab, but that's a longer story and bound up with the way labour relations in general were in the 60s and 70s wink

tr7v8

7,185 posts

227 months

Wednesday 6th March 2019
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The Dark class MGBs were fitted with Deltics as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark-class_patrol_bo...

tr7v8

7,185 posts

227 months

Wednesday 6th March 2019
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tr7v8 said:
The Dark class MGBs were fitted with Deltics as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark-class_patrol_bo...
As for the diesel aircraft read Wings of the Weird & wonderful by Captain Eric Winkle Brown. He flew quite a few of them as part of the allieds assessment programme.

GliderRider

2,068 posts

80 months

Wednesday 6th March 2019
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Opposed piston engines are still being developed.

Weslake, who made the1967 Belgian Grand Prix winning engine for Dan Gurney's Eagle, have been developing opposed piston engines as a kerosene burning alternative to the Continental A65 & C85 in most older two seat light aircraft and Rotax 912 used in a lot of microlights. It looks as though it will be marketed by Superior Air Parts in the USA:

Weslake/Gemini

Diesel Cub


and BWM a RIB (Rigid Inflatable Boat) manufacturer, have one for their boats:


BWM Marine Engine


kurt535

Original Poster:

3,559 posts

116 months

Wednesday 6th March 2019
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Have just got to say, this thread has been absolutely brilliantly informative. Ty to all.

100SRV

2,126 posts

241 months

Thursday 7th March 2019
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skirk said:
What is the story behind the banana on the bridge?

Custard400

135 posts

75 months

Thursday 7th March 2019
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W124Bob said:
Back to Deltics, a well know millionaire from Huddesfield owned one of the preserved Deltics and a rumour I heard hinted that a spare engine came from the New York fire department , nice if true.
Almost, Royal Scots Grey has an engine from a Norwegian MTB that's been modified to work.

rs1952

5,247 posts

258 months

Thursday 7th March 2019
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2xChevrons said:
Yertis said:
What was the purpose of the 'second man'? I used to see them riding in diesels, then one day *gone*.
Mostly their purpose was to provide employment and satisfy the unions as BR made the switch from steam (where two-man crews are a neccessity) to diesel/electric (where it isn't). AIUI some of their jobs were the same as fireman on steamers - helping the driver spot/confirm signals, being the one to walk to the signal box if needed and so on. They were also responsible for keeping the on-board boiler for the steam heating system topped up and working (or, more accurately, being the one to shut it down when it inevitably broke).

Same as freight guards - in the days of unfitted trains you needed a man on the back to operate the van brake, in case a coupling broke and to keep the tail lamps lit. With the move to fully-fitted trains they weren't so crucial, although they were still handy from a safety perspective. Then an agreement was reached where guards could ride in the rear cab of the locomotive, and then they were got rid of entirely, replaced by a battery-operated flashing red light on the last wagon.
Good post. Pity I was typing an abridged version at the time you posted it!

There was also a lot of politics involved t the time too (with both a large and a small “p.”

The 60s were a time of great transformation on the railways. Steam was being replaced with diesel traction and then Beeching turned up with his axe. There was a policy of no compulsory redundancy at the time which meant (for footplate grades) the railways had more drivers than it knew what to do with. There may as well be two men in the cab because the other one would only be sitting in the mess room drinking tea and playing cards if he wasn’t sitting there.

Beeching had more affect in some areas than others. In the greater London area where his cuts had been fewer there was often a shortage of drivers. Where I was at the time, in Bristol, Beeching’s axe swung with a vengeance and Bath Road depot was awash with men, not only long-term “locals,” but also staff from Bath, Templecombe, Taunton and even Yeovil who had transferred there.

They had so many surplus drivers that the concept was introduced of “Put Back Driver.” These were junior drivers (seniority being all-important in those days) who had been “put back” to secondmen. However, they retained their driver’s rate of pay and, now being senior secondmen, they were rostered all the best jobs with the biggest mileage bonus payments, so in actuality a disincentive existed for these men to apply for driving jobs elsewhere, because they’d lose money of they did.

Natural wastage gradually reduced the numbers but it was only at privatisation that the issue was finally addressed, resulting today in a general lack of drivers and Joe Public complaining about how much they earn – well that’s the free enterprise supply and demand curve at work... smile

PS - in case anyone thinks I'm being sexist by referring to men, it was only men that were employed on the footplate at the time. Women couldn't be drivers because they were women and that was the end of the matter, until the Sex Discrimination Act sorted that out in 1975.

2xChevrons

3,159 posts

79 months

Thursday 7th March 2019
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Custard400 said:
Almost, Royal Scots Grey has an engine from a Norwegian MTB that's been modified to work.
IIRC that was the one which went off to Paxman to be overhauled and, because the guys at Colchester just looked up the serial number for the running specs, it came back in full-fat 1875hp/1700rpm service rating rather than the 1650hp/1500rpm rail traction rating. Which produced a very fast Deltic for a while before they cottoned on and had it 'turned down'.

I remember reading somewhere that in their last days of service the Deltics put in some incredibly fast timings on the ECML, well above their nominal 100mph maximum. This was because, depending on who you believe, the depots were either tweaking open the fuelling settings back towards the marine rating or maintenance was being neglected as the locos reached the end of their service so the governor settings weren't being checked and adjusted properly, and Deltics being what they are, even a small amount of wear in the throttle/fuelling system could unlock several hundred extra horsepower. At least one Deltic had its traction motor windings packed with resin (so they wouldn't overheat but could never be serviced again) and had its field transition settings tweaked to turn it into a 'Deltic GTI' for the final months. It was timed down Stoke Bank at over 125mph even though the driver said that the cab speed registered bang on 100mph... The rest of the fleet regulary topped out at 113-115mph in their last days.

rs1952 said:
Good post. Pity I was typing an abridged version at the time you posted it!

The 60s were a time of great transformation on the railways. Steam was being replaced with diesel traction and then Beeching turned up with his axe. There was a policy of no compulsory redundancy at the time which meant (for footplate grades) the railways had more drivers than it knew what to do with. There may as well be two men in the cab because the other one would only be sitting in the mess room drinking tea and playing cards if he wasn’t sitting there.
As someone with actual experience of the work and the time, I hope you'll be able to answer this - when did the old system of 'on the job' driver training go? In the steam days you'd join as an engine cleaner, then become passed cleaner/fireman/passed fireman/driver then up through the 'links'. Then, as you say, there was the trasitional period with driver and secondmen (which seem to be a mix of surplus qualified drivers and upcoming new trainees).

Obviously the switch to modern traction made the old system superfluous, and BR struggled with recruitment and retention. The low birth rate in the 1930s (Great Depression) and then WW2 had meant that by the late 1950s there was a national shortage of 20-something men, and not many of those fancied the pay, hours and working conditions that the railways were offering. I was just wondering when the old system was finally swept away.

rs1952

5,247 posts

258 months

Thursday 7th March 2019
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2xChevrons said:
As someone with actual experience of the work and the time, I hope you'll be able to answer this - when did the old system of 'on the job' driver training go? In the steam days you'd join as an engine cleaner, then become passed cleaner/fireman/passed fireman/driver then up through the 'links'. Then, as you say, there was the trasitional period with driver and secondmen (which seem to be a mix of surplus qualified drivers and upcoming new trainees).

Obviously the switch to modern traction made the old system superfluous, and BR struggled with recruitment and retention. The low birth rate in the 1930s (Great Depression) and then WW2 had meant that by the late 1950s there was a national shortage of 20-something men, and not many of those fancied the pay, hours and working conditions that the railways were offering. I was just wondering when the old system was finally swept away.
I can’t give you a definitive answer but I can give some general guidance. There are drivers on this forum who might know a bit more, but the trouble is time has gone on and those new recruits just after the end of steam have begun to retire themselves.

The transition started more or less with the end of steam, but that itself was a drawn out process with parts of Scotland and East Anglia fully dieselised by 1960, whilst the last steam depots in Lancashire (Lostock Hall in Preston, Rose Grove in Burnley and Carnforth) soldiered on until August 1968. The grade of Traction Trainee was invented to take people off the street and turn them into drivers, and there are drivers on this forum who I know went through that process because they have said so on here in other threads.

The earliest that I can date it was someone I knew (dead now – died young) who wanted to work on the footplate when he left school and became a Traction Trainee at Stonebridge Park, London, in 1971. Somebody I used to work with in Bristol of about my age, who was employed as a messenger there, got a Traction Trainee post in Inverness a few year after that.

In Bristol at the time we had no need of Traction Trainees because, as I said in my last post, we had too many drivers anyway. By the time I left the railway (1980) a demographic change was about to kick in because a good half of the drivers were 55+ and the death in service rate was always quite high (spending most of a working life surrounded by the muck and filth of steam, extremely irregular and unsocial hours so never getting into a decent sleep pattern and, in many cases, smoking 60 to 80 a day into the bargain all helped to bring that interview with St Peter a little bit closer...) That said, by the time I left they were offering Traction Trainee course at Westbury, but I have no idea how many people they were accepting.


P5BNij

15,764 posts

105 months

Thursday 7th March 2019
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The secondman grade disappeared in 1988, I was one of the last to be taken on at Stonebridge Park in early '83. Other depots continued to take in new recruits for a few years after that though. Since '88 new drivers have been recruited from the guard / trainman line of promotion but when privatisation arrived things started changing again. These days drivers are often recruited internally within existing TOCs and FOCs but are just as often recruited off the street, they're now called Graduate Drivers to give them their proper title. They start off in the classroom covering the rule book then do their train handling with a mentor driver, not necessarily at their home depot either as mentor drivers are hard to come by. It can take up to a year to fully train a new driver and once passed out they then have to do all of their road learning before being allowed to drive on their own. The amount of train handling hours differs between the various companies but all trainees have to do a certain amount of driving in daylight and at night time.

It's often the case that once new drivers are passed out, they'll apply to other companies and move elsewhere which means the process has to start all over again for depots to keep their driver numbers up.

Flying Phil

1,578 posts

144 months

Thursday 7th March 2019
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[quote=2xChevrons ][quote=Custard400]



I remember reading somewhere that in their last days of service the Deltics put in some incredibly fast timings on the ECML, well above their nominal 100mph maximum. This was because, depending on who you believe, the depots were either tweaking open the fuelling settings back towards the marine rating or maintenance was being neglected as the locos reached the end of their service so the governor settings weren't being checked and adjusted properly, and Deltics being what they are, even a small amount of wear in the throttle/fuelling system could unlock several hundred extra horsepower. At least one Deltic had its traction motor windings packed with resin (so they wouldn't overheat but could never be serviced again) and had its field transition settings tweaked to turn it into a 'Deltic GTI' for the final months. It was timed down Stoke Bank at over 125mph even though the driver said that the cab speed registered bang on 100mph... The rest of the fleet regulary topped out at 113-115mph in their last days.

[quote=rs1952]

Nice to have that mentioned, as I was told by a signal man at Little Bytham(?) that they did the four miles from the previous 'box in 2 mins....I thought it was an exaggeration at the time.

3.8 MOD

120 posts

187 months

Thursday 7th March 2019
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In the mid seventies I was shown round the engine room of Carinthia IV.
She was built in 64 or 65 I think, 42m Esterel, triple diagonal mahogany designed by Andre Mauric.
A beautiful, huge cabin cruiser.
She had two 18 cyl Napier Deltics. The engine room was almost half the length of the boat!
I was told by the captain and engineer that in her sea trials, she had made 42 knots!
Aside from swamping a few small boats in doing so, the cavitation had eaten away at the prop blades.
They then changed the pitch and diameter and she lost 5-10 knots in top speed.
I'll try to find some photos later.
MoD.

slartibartfast

4,014 posts

200 months

Friday 8th March 2019
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There are 6 out of the 22 Deltic loco's preserved, 7 if you count the prototype.
One (No'9 Alycidon) ran at the weekend but failed due to a traction motor failure.

The sound of the engine (power unit) is just amazing!

I filmed No'9 loco passing through Lincoln back in 2017, I used to be a trainspotter but still have an interest as they are fascinating to listen to

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vSeJI0AH7I

slartibartfast

4,014 posts

200 months

Friday 8th March 2019
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Some interesting history and details on this website (link below), also an interesting single section prototype engine at the bottom

http://www.startline.org.uk/slol74/deltic/deltic.h...

shed driver

2,138 posts

159 months

Monday 11th March 2019
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Found this in my 1960 copy of Jane's Fighting Ships 1960-1961 (Sampson, Low, Marston and Co, London).

Loads of other adverts too. May start a thread on these. Absolutely fascinating.

SD.

mcdjl

5,438 posts

194 months

Monday 11th March 2019
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100SRV said:
What is the story behind the banana on the bridge?
Its HMS Brinton it turns out: http://tca2000.co.uk/?page_id=1035 Beyond that no idea!

100SRV

2,126 posts

241 months

Monday 11th March 2019
quotequote all
mcdjl said:
Its HMS Brinton it turns out: http://tca2000.co.uk/?page_id=1035 Beyond that no idea!
Thank you!