Deltic engine origins surprised me
Discussion
matchmaker said:
skirk said:
I have carried out a few breech changes on marine Deltics............cartridge start weirdness.......beautufully balanced engines that rev like a motorbike....dirty though....used to cause a few problems if left at low power for too long with the exhaust drains closed...when the engine loaded up after a while at low speed there would be sparks and flames coming out of the stack.....happy days.
Same happened if a Deltic locomotive was left idling for too long!
GliderRider said:
Deltics as well as other diesel engines were tested for the Navy at the former National Gas Turbine Establishment at Pyestock, between Farnborogh and Fleet in Hampshire. I did part of my apprenticeship there, and was shown the Deltic and had its workings explained to me, although I don't recall actually working on it. The focus of my attention for three months was the Paxman Valenta (2250hp, V12, 79 litres), and struggling to get the massive pistons and conrods out after extended running to determine wear and carbon build up.
Pictures of the Deltic & Valenta appear here: Diesel engines at Pyestock
We built an 18cyl test rp200 that hit 4,000 bhp they could do some very serious horse power.Pictures of the Deltic & Valenta appear here: Diesel engines at Pyestock
Simpo Two said:
Seems to me that the Deltic was to trains what the Napier Sabre was to fighters...!
Somewhat, the NM designation on parts was typically for the marine element.We used to build them for the Indian navy’s, and US coastguard from memory. 42ks for the Indian navy were a little bit fragile at times...
Hope you don't mind me asking this here, it wasn't worth starting a thread on really.
When they move locos why don't they just do it on the rails? There was a program on recently about the trucking company which does them all (or most) in the UK and they never said why. The only reasons I can think of are:
Where they are kept isn't connected to a mainline, maybe it isn't worth loading them from where they are onto a truck and to the closest line?
Insurance?
Do the owners of the tracks not allow it?
When they move locos why don't they just do it on the rails? There was a program on recently about the trucking company which does them all (or most) in the UK and they never said why. The only reasons I can think of are:
Where they are kept isn't connected to a mainline, maybe it isn't worth loading them from where they are onto a truck and to the closest line?
Insurance?
Do the owners of the tracks not allow it?
I saw that series as well. I think alot of the preservation lines are curb off from the main lines so its the only option for my them. I suspect that even lines that still have a link to my the mainline, the locos would need to be. Mainline certified which most preserved locos aren't, and even then, trundling some tank engine at 40mph from Devon to York would cause a lot of delays so would be avoided at all costs.
Just a guess mind, I know nothing about the workings of the railways.
Just a guess mind, I know nothing about the workings of the railways.
The Deltic in the photos was on a lorry because the nearest mainline is 2 miles away from the building. Although a railway did used to run about 50 metres away pre-Beeching.
The locos are part of a private collection and most of them are either unserviceable or the boiler tickets have expired so they can’t be run anyway. The building is currently just being used for storage but will eventually open as a transport museum in the next couple of years. Should be pretty impressive. There’s an A4 Pacific in there too (Bittern).
The locos are part of a private collection and most of them are either unserviceable or the boiler tickets have expired so they can’t be run anyway. The building is currently just being used for storage but will eventually open as a transport museum in the next couple of years. Should be pretty impressive. There’s an A4 Pacific in there too (Bittern).
lufbramatt said:
The Deltic in the photos was on a lorry because the nearest mainline is 2 miles away from the building. Although a railway did used to run about 50 metres away pre-Beeching.
The locos are part of a private collection and most of them are either unserviceable or the boiler tickets have expired so they can’t be run anyway. The building is currently just being used for storage but will eventually open as a transport museum in the next couple of years. Should be pretty impressive. There’s an A4 Pacific in there too (Bittern).
http://www.theonetoonecollection.co.uk/The locos are part of a private collection and most of them are either unserviceable or the boiler tickets have expired so they can’t be run anyway. The building is currently just being used for storage but will eventually open as a transport museum in the next couple of years. Should be pretty impressive. There’s an A4 Pacific in there too (Bittern).
I believe the Deltic has no engine.
227bhp said:
Hope you don't mind me asking this here, it wasn't worth starting a thread on really.
When they move locos why don't they just do it on the rails? There was a program on recently about the trucking company which does them all (or most) in the UK and they never said why. The only reasons I can think of are:
Where they are kept isn't connected to a mainline, maybe it isn't worth loading them from where they are onto a truck and to the closest line?
Insurance?
Do the owners of the tracks not allow it?
There are many reasons but basically it cost less to make most moves by road, even when both ends are rail connected. Anything running on Network Rail has to be approved and gauged for the route, which has to be paid for. Some Great Western locomotive are too high for overhead electrified lines, some are too wide across the cylinders for some platforms. Most preserved railway lines are not connected to the rail network...etc.When they move locos why don't they just do it on the rails? There was a program on recently about the trucking company which does them all (or most) in the UK and they never said why. The only reasons I can think of are:
Where they are kept isn't connected to a mainline, maybe it isn't worth loading them from where they are onto a truck and to the closest line?
Insurance?
Do the owners of the tracks not allow it?
Flying Phil said:
There are many reasons but basically it cost less to make most moves by road, even when both ends are rail connected. Anything running on Network Rail has to be approved and gauged for the route, which has to be paid for. Some Great Western locomotive are too high for overhead electrified lines, some are too wide across the cylinders for some platforms. Most preserved railway lines are not connected to the rail network...etc.
From memory all but one of the surviving Deltics have been out on the mainline at least once. The prototype DP1 can't be taken out on the mainline. Firstly because it hasn't been modernised at all, which makes it pretty interesting as a historic artifact! Secondly, because of clearance issues. From memory, again, it is a wee bit taller than the production Deltics.I saw Deltic Alycidon leave Waverley early on last year. Sadly it took a big dose of electricity somewhere near Drem, and this was enough to burn out all of the traction motors. It is possible that the overhead line struck the roof of the Deltic somehow.
I was also at the Bo'ness railway diesel gala last week. Star of the show, a Class 26 newly returned to the railway, developed an alternator fault five minutes into the first service of the day.
Steam locos can be coaxed into life with a hammer, whereas heritage diesel seems to die on a whim! Trucking them by road presents a lower risk.
NapierDeltic said:
From memory all but one of the surviving Deltics have been out on the mainline at least once. The prototype DP1 can't be taken out on the mainline. Firstly because it hasn't been modernised at all, which makes it pretty interesting as a historic artifact! Secondly, because of clearance issues. From memory, again, it is a wee bit taller than the production Deltics.
DP1 is wider and taller than the production Class 55s. Even when it was in service it was slightly out-of-gauge and was restricted as to where it could go so it wouldn't foul platform edges - for instance it was barred from the ex-NER lines north of York, which were not as generous width-wise as the ex-GNR lines to the south. Even then it lost a couple of cab step sets to platform strikes. Just to get DP1 from York to Shildon it had to have things like its steps, air horns and (IIRC) the lamp brackets taken off to stay in-gauge even for a one-off restricted move. More prosaically, it was originally taken out of service because one of its engines threw a connecting rod and since then the engines have had their pistons, con rods and crankshafts and most of the phasing gears removed, along with quite a few ancillary fittings and equipment. Those engines were specially-built adaptations of the original Deltic marine engine, rather than the traction-spec engines on the Class 55s, so repairing them would not only require sourcing a lot of essentially extinct parts but a lot of the ancillary parts were custom-made for the installation so there are no off-the-shelf replacements.
As you say, DP1 is still in its entirely original form, having been unrestored since 1962 (when, IIRC, it was given a repaint before being presented to the Science Museum) and essentially unchanged since it was built in 1955. That is worth preserving in itself. Any return to running would not only require fitting out-of-period equipment to that lovely Dan Dare-esque cab but you'd have to reupholster the original (but threadbare) seats and probably replace an awful lot of the electric wiring so you'd lose the magnificent smell of warm Bakelite and old insulation that infuses the loco today.
You'd lose all that originality and story and gain nothing, given that there are a number of Class 55s active in preservation.
C2Red said:
matchmaker said:
skirk said:
I have carried out a few breech changes on marine Deltics............cartridge start weirdness.......beautufully balanced engines that rev like a motorbike....dirty though....used to cause a few problems if left at low power for too long with the exhaust drains closed...when the engine loaded up after a while at low speed there would be sparks and flames coming out of the stack.....happy days.
Same happened if a Deltic locomotive was left idling for too long!Also, a memorable news clip about the end of the Deltics, the kid at 45 seconds in is great https://youtu.be/6xSbmBhFnQk
Gareth1974 said:
Also, a memorable news clip about the end of the Deltics, the kid at 45 seconds in is great https://youtu.be/6xSbmBhFnQk
He never lost it, that is Simon Lilley,..now a fairly well known railway author, currently compiling a book on the BRCW Class 33's 
matchmaker said:
skirk said:
....used to cause a few problems if left at low power for too long with the exhaust drains closed...when the engine loaded up after a while at low speed there would be sparks and flames coming out of the stack.....
Same happened if a Deltic locomotive was left idling for too long!As I understand it, there’s an oil catch drum in the exhaust system just before the roof port. When the engine runs at low load for a while (e.g. stopped in a station with the engine running & train heat on) then oil collects there. Rev the engine up and the oil ignites. IIRC, on the first preserved mainline run, something like this resulted in Berwick on Tweed’s station roof being set alight.
alangla said:
As I understand it, there’s an oil catch drum in the exhaust system just before the roof port. When the engine runs at low load for a while (e.g. stopped in a station with the engine running & train heat on) then oil collects there. Rev the engine up and the oil ignites. IIRC, on the first preserved mainline run, something like this resulted in Berwick on Tweed’s station roof being set alight.
This is correct. Two-stroke uniflow diesels like the Deltic, by the nature of their design, pass a lot of oil into exhaust tract, so there are collector rings to gather it. Draining the collector ring(s) is part of the pre-start procedure. Once the engine is running under load and the exhaust is up to temperature, the tolerances in the engine close up (so there's less oil getting past the rings and through the exhaust ports) and the collected oil burns off near-invisibly. A Deltic that's been working properly for more than a few minutes should have a very clean exhaust - the smokescreens come when they've been idling or working light for a while.Radial aircraft engines have the same design features, the same tendency to pass oil to the exhaust and the same tendency to cover the district with oily smoke when they're cold.
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