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Discussion
RoverP6B said:
No they don't. They exemplify everything that is wrong with Britain. They have no heritage value whatsoever. We have far too many preserved diesels as it is, including a number of unsuccessful and unreliable types (Hymeks!), plus various severely derelict examples (there's one infamous basket case of a Peak that for some incomprehensible reason still hasn't been weighed in), and we need to be reducing their numbers, not increasing them!
You do realise that there is a sizeable interest in the 142s ?. Given how many steam locos have been preserved, often at considerable expense, what on earth is the problem with ensuring that another significant part of our rail heritage is also looked after ?RoverP6B said:
No they don't. They exemplify everything that is wrong with Britain. They have no heritage value whatsoever. We have far too many preserved diesels as it is, including a number of unsuccessful and unreliable types (Hymeks!), plus various severely derelict examples (there's one infamous basket case of a Peak that for some incomprehensible reason still hasn't been weighed in), and we need to be reducing their numbers, not increasing them!
Not sure about Pacers myself as I've never seen one, let alone experienced the joys of a trip...perhaps its a good thing they never reached the BR Southern Region.I'd agree that there are too many preserved diesels with a lot of no-hopers among them...Hymeks however were superb locos once the early transmission problems had been sorted out, capable of punching well above their weight and much missed by the crews on withdrawal...probably the best of the WR diesel hydraulic types overall but will always be overshadowed by the more glamourous/temperamental Warships and Westerns.
The infamous 45015 on the Battlefield line was a wreck when purchased, after the deluded original owner fell behind on rent payments possession passed to the railway but they cannot now afford to scrap/move it as blue asbestos was discovered in the boiler compartment as well as the original issue with a broken spring on one bogie precluding rail movement of any distance...It'll most likely continue to be the butt of jokes for years to come.
At least you can upgrade a Marina with a wider axle, fat tyres and a Rover V8...
I have yet to see *any* evidence of enthusiasm for Pacers, let alone a "sizeable" one. A few magpie-like railways are taking them simply because they always want more stock, without thinking of the implications.
I reiterate: Pacers have NO place on any self-proclaimed "heritage railway".
I have yet to see *any* evidence of enthusiasm for Pacers, let alone a "sizeable" one. A few magpie-like railways are taking them simply because they always want more stock, without thinking of the implications.
I reiterate: Pacers have NO place on any self-proclaimed "heritage railway".
RoverP6B said:
At least you can upgrade a Marina with a wider axle, fat tyres and a Rover V8...
I have yet to see *any* evidence of enthusiasm for Pacers, let alone a "sizeable" one. A few magpie-like railways are taking them simply because they always want more stock, without thinking of the implications.
I reiterate: Pacers have NO place on any self-proclaimed "heritage railway".
So Pacers aren't part of our heritage ?I have yet to see *any* evidence of enthusiasm for Pacers, let alone a "sizeable" one. A few magpie-like railways are taking them simply because they always want more stock, without thinking of the implications.
I reiterate: Pacers have NO place on any self-proclaimed "heritage railway".
They are part of our railway heritage, but for the wrong reason. Genuine question , have the NRM taken one? I suppose my opinion is biased having had to drive them from almost new, they were full of design defects from day one. The brakes for example, each axle had a single brake cylinder with a cable in tube system actuating the brake blocks. There was a skip constantly full of stretched cables at Newton Heath, the Self Change gearbox was another issue. Just two items which were very quickly modified , interestingly althought the Andrew Barclay 143 and Met Cam 144 were mechanically identical underneath, they did appear to be better screwed together. Another issue I remember was when data recorders came into use, the 142 wiring was such a bodge there were no wiring diagrammes and took months longer to be eqiupped with recorders. I wonder about spares, not so much for the oily bits but the peripheral stuff .
RoverP6B said:
No they don't. They exemplify everything that is wrong with Britain. They have no heritage value whatsoever. We have far too many preserved diesels as it is, including a number of unsuccessful and unreliable types (Hymeks!), plus various severely derelict examples (there's one infamous basket case of a Peak that for some incomprehensible reason still hasn't been weighed in), and we need to be reducing their numbers, not increasing them!
That was the thinking around steam in the go-go 60's. In line with that it was banned from BR metals for a while with much condemnation from the "progressive" BR Chairman of the time. If Woodhams hadn't been so busy cutting up wagons...I am not arguing for the preservation of anything and everything and there are plenty of basket cases as said. However the Pacers are part of railway history and if they are all whisked off to the scrappy in a few years time there will be wails of " why did they let this happen?".
If the Heritage railways can't make them 'work' then they'll fade away but on the other hand with the amount of development in formerly rural areas they may open up new markets.
Dogwatch said:
RoverP6B said:
No they don't. They exemplify everything that is wrong with Britain. They have no heritage value whatsoever. We have far too many preserved diesels as it is, including a number of unsuccessful and unreliable types (Hymeks!), plus various severely derelict examples (there's one infamous basket case of a Peak that for some incomprehensible reason still hasn't been weighed in), and we need to be reducing their numbers, not increasing them!
That was the thinking around steam in the go-go 60's. In line with that it was banned from BR metals for a while with much condemnation from the "progressive" BR Chairman of the time. If Woodhams hadn't been so busy cutting up wagons...I am not arguing for the preservation of anything and everything and there are plenty of basket cases as said. However the Pacers are part of railway history and if they are all whisked off to the scrappy in a few years time there will be wails of " why did they let this happen?".
If the Heritage railways can't make them 'work' then they'll fade away but on the other hand with the amount of development in formerly rural areas they may open up new markets.
I rarely travel by train. Maybe two trips per year. Last May I had to travel from Wellingborough to Hull to collect my wife’s new Polo. I paid a bit more and went Weekend First. Wellingborough to Sheffield was lovely and I was in good spirits. Then I had to change to the Hull train. Jesus it was like I had been teleported to a Third World country. It was a weezing, stinking, sweaty Pacer. I honestly had no idea such squalor still existed on our network. That’s not railway heritage, that’s humiliation.
RoverP6B said:
Steam is heritage, most diesel isn't, Pacers sure as hell aren't. End of.
I assume that your dictionary has a different definition of 'heritage' to mine. Just because you only want to see steam it doesn't mean to say that your wishes should be allowed to trample over everybody else's.RoverP6B said:
Heritage railways are not there to accumulate obsolete stock on an ongoing basis. Their purpose is to commemorate a specific era. The Pacers only detract and distract from that. Waste of space, manpower, resources and money.
You appear to believe that 'heritage' can only really equate to 'steam'.Thank goodness many others don't subscribe to that outdated, blinkered, view.
Robertj21a said:
RoverP6B said:
Heritage railways are not there to accumulate obsolete stock on an ongoing basis. Their purpose is to commemorate a specific era. The Pacers only detract and distract from that. Waste of space, manpower, resources and money.
You appear to believe that 'heritage' can only really equate to 'steam'.Thank goodness many others don't subscribe to that outdated, blinkered, view.
By and large, the general public is utterly disinterested in diesel power. Even Deltics won't arouse the slightest reaction. The various BCW, Brush, English Electric etc locos could easily go for scrap and few would mourn. I can see an argument for keeping an HST, preferably at a preserved main line depot like Carnforth, Barrow Hill or Tyseley, but Pacers? Absolutely not. If you want to drive visitors away, never to return, by all means buy a Pacer...
RoverP6B said:
By and large, the general public is utterly disinterested in diesel power. Even Deltics won't arouse the slightest reaction. The various BCW, Brush, English Electric etc locos could easily go for scrap and few would mourn. I can see an argument for keeping an HST, preferably at a preserved main line depot like Carnforth, Barrow Hill or Tyseley, but Pacers? Absolutely not. If you want to drive visitors away, never to return, by all means buy a Pacer...
I'm sorry mate but you really are taking a remarkably blinkered view of the Heritage Railway sector. I don't know how old you are but your username gives me an idea ( 
) - perlaps I could have called myself RoverP5b around here as I still had a couple when I signed up in 2002 
The arguments over what to preserve have been going on since railway preservation was invented. Let us not forget, for example, that Sir William Stanier when Works Manager at Swindon (ie before he joined the LMS) ordered that the original North Star be cut up "because they needed the space"
Diesel days on Heritage railways are generally well-supported and they do appeal to large numbers of the general public and indeed enthusiasts who only remember the diesel era. They don't appeal much to me, perhaps because I can remember the last days of steam. However, although I was in Rose Grove and Lostock Hall and Carnforth at the end of July/ beginning of August 1968, I had just turned 16 at the time so I was probably one of the youngest. And at 67 now, you can see that people who remember "real" steam on BR are a diminishing group. And they will continue to diminish until one day we are all gone, and all that will be left would be diesel enhusiasts and the general public.
Personally I had a "downer" on the class 50s. They were being introduced as BR steam came to an end, and I suppose I blamed them by implication for it. If it had been down to me every last one of them would have been cut up, and I would quite happily have wielded the torch. If I had I doubt that my popularity rating would be particularly high today within the railway preservation movement...
There were many locotives that "got away" at the end of steam, and not all of them are, as far as I know, subjects of recreation projects such as the County, Grange, Patriot or Brighton Atlantic. For example a Billinton SECR class K was offered to the Bluebell in 1962 but they didn't want it because they said it was too big for their line. It ended up as baked bean tuns and razor blades...
Nobody can or indeed should have the final word on what gets preserved and what doesn't get preserved. And that is a good thing. I once took a ride in the Gresley quad-art set on the North Norfolk. Once was enough, and I am sure that if it was just down to the commuters who had to ride in those bloody things day after day for 30-odd years some of them would have happily wielded the cutters torch too.
I am remnded of a quote from J R R Tolkein in Lord of the Rings. "Of course he deserves death. But many who are dead deserve life. Can you give that to them? Then be not too swift to deal out death in judgement."
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