Berlin Airlift
Discussion
RoverP6B said:
I'm afraid I have nothing to add but this link...
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Flight-Refuelling-...
...but I'm fascinated to see what comes of this thread.
I note with interest the RAF serial ED866 - would be interesting to turn up its military service records. I know ED888, having been assigned the identifier "M for Mother", became known as "Mother of 'em all", having completed more missions than any other Lancaster (Hendon's R5868 included), only to be cut up unceremoniously at the end of the war...
The BBMF Lancaster, PA474, spent some time "dressed up" as 'Mike squared' or "Mother of 'em all"...https://www.airliners.net/photo/Flight-Refuelling-...
...but I'm fascinated to see what comes of this thread.
I note with interest the RAF serial ED866 - would be interesting to turn up its military service records. I know ED888, having been assigned the identifier "M for Mother", became known as "Mother of 'em all", having completed more missions than any other Lancaster (Hendon's R5868 included), only to be cut up unceremoniously at the end of the war...
Lancaster PA474 (City Of Lincoln) of the BBMF wearing the 103 Squadron code... PM M² ...of Lancaster ED888, veteran of 140 missions during WW2. Over 3,000 Lancasters built, but only 24 were recorded as having completed 100 (or more) operational missions.
RoverP6B said:
I'm afraid I have nothing to add but this link...
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Flight-Refuelling-...
...but I'm fascinated to see what comes of this thread.
I note with interest the RAF serial ED866 - would be interesting to turn up its military service records.
Two of its 'sister' Lancaster's (ED864 & ED865) were Dambusters.https://www.airliners.net/photo/Flight-Refuelling-...
...but I'm fascinated to see what comes of this thread.
I note with interest the RAF serial ED866 - would be interesting to turn up its military service records.
ED864, AJ-B flown by Flt.Lt. Astell crashed after hitting power lines enroute to the Mohne Dam.
ED865, AJ-S flown by P.O. Burpee, crashed after being hit by flak, enroute to the Sorpe Dam.
Tyre Smoke said:
Anyone know where I can find the service record of 'Jig Willie'? ED866.
It served with 97 Squadron at one time, and was 1 of the 20 x Lancs from 97 Sqn that took part in the 600 bomber raid on the Peenemunde rocket research facility on the Baltic coast on Aug 17th 1943.Take off time from RAF Bourn was at 2110.
Lancaster ED 866 'P' Crew, F/O Fletcher, Sgt Nelson, F/Sgt. Dunn, Sgt. Beesley, F/Sgt. Layne, Sgt. Laing, Sgt. Page.
Other earlier known missions for ED866 'P' while with 97 Sqn were,
Aug 10th 1943 to Nuremberg, part of a 653 x bomber raid.
Take off time from RAF Bourn was 2145.
Lancaster ED 866 P Crew: F/O Fletcher, Sgt. Nelson, F/Sgt. Dunn, Sgt. Beesley, F/Sgt. Layne, Sgt. White, Sgt. Coates.
Aug 12th 1943 to Milan, part of a 504 x bomber raid.
Take off time from RAF Bourn was 2124.
Lancaster ED 866 P Crew: F/O Fletcher, Sgt. Nelson, F/Sgt. Dunn, Sgt. Beesley, F/Sgt. Layne, Sgt. White, F/O Mussi.
There will be a record card for ED866 on file, but not sure whether its in National Archives or RAF Museum...?
You can get his personnel records free of charge from the NZDF: there's an application form at http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/personnel-records/nzdf-arch...
That may well have some detail of his Berlin airlift activities if he was still part of the RNZAF reserve at the time.
That may well have some detail of his Berlin airlift activities if he was still part of the RNZAF reserve at the time.
...and a little more G-AHJW content from the same book:
The book has a section on flight refuelling trials, which mentions that ED866 was one of 24 Lancasters set aside for development work by Flight Refuelling LTD, with ED866 being converted into a tanker at Staverton, near Gloucester. During the Berlin Airlift, G-AHJU, G-AHJW and G-AHVN were impressed to carry bulk fuel to the German capital, after further refuelling trials planned for '48-49 were cancelled, due to the absorbtion of British South American Airlines into BOAC, and the promise of airliners with much longer ranges on the horizon.
I hope this slightly geeky interlude is of interest to somebody...
The book has a section on flight refuelling trials, which mentions that ED866 was one of 24 Lancasters set aside for development work by Flight Refuelling LTD, with ED866 being converted into a tanker at Staverton, near Gloucester. During the Berlin Airlift, G-AHJU, G-AHJW and G-AHVN were impressed to carry bulk fuel to the German capital, after further refuelling trials planned for '48-49 were cancelled, due to the absorbtion of British South American Airlines into BOAC, and the promise of airliners with much longer ranges on the horizon.
I hope this slightly geeky interlude is of interest to somebody...
Tyre Smoke said:
It certainly is.
Once again I cannot thank everyone enough. This is a truly fascinating time. I'm guessing that my grandfather would have regularly flown one of the other Flight Refuelling Ltd Lancastrians since he was only hitching a lift.
With the intensity of operations during the Berlin Airlift, one crew per aeroplane would not have been enough to (safely) keep up the tempo. So it's possible, probable even, that there were multiple crews assigned to each aircraft, so it's just as likely that he was part of the alternate crew for the aeroplane on which he perished. Operationally that would make sense, as their aircraft was returning to the UK for servicing/inspection so one crew flies it home, both crews go off for some R&R while the aeroplane is worked on by ground techs, then the alternate crew flies it back to Germany. That way each crew would have been familiar with their own aeroplane, as they were not identical in their refuelling equipment fit-out as far as I understand it.Once again I cannot thank everyone enough. This is a truly fascinating time. I'm guessing that my grandfather would have regularly flown one of the other Flight Refuelling Ltd Lancastrians since he was only hitching a lift.
I can imagine that, outside of an operation like this, there would be fewer crews employed by the likes of FR/Cobham. Flight refuelling testing and development wouldn't have been high intensity or high tempo, but an engineering development programme using experienced crews in smaller numbers. But there would have been a large surplus of recently experienced Lancaster crews knocking about after the war, so it would be relatively easy to take on an extra crew (or three) per aeroplane to support such an operation as the Berlin Airlift. Caveat: I'm not an expert on the subject, and this is just my thoughts. I may be well wide of the mark.
yellowjack said:
Tyre Smoke said:
It certainly is.
Once again I cannot thank everyone enough. This is a truly fascinating time. I'm guessing that my grandfather would have regularly flown one of the other Flight Refuelling Ltd Lancastrians since he was only hitching a lift.
With the intensity of operations during the Berlin Airlift, one crew per aeroplane would not have been enough to (safely) keep up the tempo. So it's possible, probable even, that there were multiple crews assigned to each aircraft, so it's just as likely that he was part of the alternate crew for the aeroplane on which he perished. Operationally that would make sense, as their aircraft was returning to the UK for servicing/inspection so one crew flies it home, both crews go off for some R&R while the aeroplane is worked on by ground techs, then the alternate crew flies it back to Germany. That way each crew would have been familiar with their own aeroplane, as they were not identical in their refuelling equipment fit-out as far as I understand it.Once again I cannot thank everyone enough. This is a truly fascinating time. I'm guessing that my grandfather would have regularly flown one of the other Flight Refuelling Ltd Lancastrians since he was only hitching a lift.
I can imagine that, outside of an operation like this, there would be fewer crews employed by the likes of FR/Cobham. Flight refuelling testing and development wouldn't have been high intensity or high tempo, but an engineering development programme using experienced crews in smaller numbers. But there would have been a large surplus of recently experienced Lancaster crews knocking about after the war, so it would be relatively easy to take on an extra crew (or three) per aeroplane to support such an operation as the Berlin Airlift. Caveat: I'm not an expert on the subject, and this is just my thoughts. I may be well wide of the mark.
Yes, I guess that would make sense. So likely he flew Jig Willie as part of the crew.
It's weird, but I've always found stuff like this absolutely facinating. I'm like a sponge when something like this comes up. For instance, the story of Donald Campbell has me captivated. The discovery of the Titanic and Bismarck too.
So to discover little more than a fortnight ago, I had a grandfather that came over from New Zealand to serve with the RAF through the war, and then to take part in the Berlin Airlift is mind blowing. But I suppose, a young man recently demobbed, recently married with a young daughter needs a job. And being aircrew and familiar with the aircraft, a job on the Airlift would be relatively well paid and a 'no brainer'.
It's weird, but I've always found stuff like this absolutely facinating. I'm like a sponge when something like this comes up. For instance, the story of Donald Campbell has me captivated. The discovery of the Titanic and Bismarck too.
So to discover little more than a fortnight ago, I had a grandfather that came over from New Zealand to serve with the RAF through the war, and then to take part in the Berlin Airlift is mind blowing. But I suppose, a young man recently demobbed, recently married with a young daughter needs a job. And being aircrew and familiar with the aircraft, a job on the Airlift would be relatively well paid and a 'no brainer'.
It would appear that my grandfather once in the UK, ended up at 138 Squadron flying Halifaxes on 'Carpetbagger' missions out of RAF Tempsford in Befordshire.
He flew 32 sorties dropping personnel and supplies to the resistance in France, Netherlands, Belgium, etc. It would seem also that he had crash landed before whilst on a training mission in a Halifax, but managed to 'walk away' from that one.
http://www.grahamhague.com/tempsfordhalifax9.shtml
It would appear that his squadron converted to Lancasters just before the end of the war and were transferred to Bomber Command in April 1945.
I've written to the NZ armed forces archive to see what they have, but I'm now on a mission to see if I can find a photo of my grandfather. He seems to have been quite camera shy.
He flew 32 sorties dropping personnel and supplies to the resistance in France, Netherlands, Belgium, etc. It would seem also that he had crash landed before whilst on a training mission in a Halifax, but managed to 'walk away' from that one.
http://www.grahamhague.com/tempsfordhalifax9.shtml
It would appear that his squadron converted to Lancasters just before the end of the war and were transferred to Bomber Command in April 1945.
I've written to the NZ armed forces archive to see what they have, but I'm now on a mission to see if I can find a photo of my grandfather. He seems to have been quite camera shy.
Good luck with this.
I went on a similar journey and ended up discovering that my father only just survived a crash as second pilot in a Coastal Command Flying Fortress landing short after a 12 hour sortie when 3 other crew died. Also that his father was one of the Old Contemptibles in the First War, was wounded in 1915, but had also served in the North West Mounted Police in Canada in the early 1900s.
In my case my dad only died in 1998 but it was never spoken about so you probably wouldn't have known either if your dad had survived!
It is amazing what you can find out these days, and how little we seem to have contributed ourselves.
I went on a similar journey and ended up discovering that my father only just survived a crash as second pilot in a Coastal Command Flying Fortress landing short after a 12 hour sortie when 3 other crew died. Also that his father was one of the Old Contemptibles in the First War, was wounded in 1915, but had also served in the North West Mounted Police in Canada in the early 1900s.
In my case my dad only died in 1998 but it was never spoken about so you probably wouldn't have known either if your dad had survived!
It is amazing what you can find out these days, and how little we seem to have contributed ourselves.
I've finally sat down and digested this thread in detail. So glad I did its fascinating.
Where are you chaps getting the information on flights etc from as I would like to look into my grandparents.
I have a lot of information on one grand parent (flight logs, routes, maps etc - think really he should have handed these back but didn't) but my other grandparent who was a navigator in the RAF I have no information on which I would like to look into.
Where are you chaps getting the information on flights etc from as I would like to look into my grandparents.
I have a lot of information on one grand parent (flight logs, routes, maps etc - think really he should have handed these back but didn't) but my other grandparent who was a navigator in the RAF I have no information on which I would like to look into.
Flight Refuelling had their Lancaster's and Lancastrian’s based at Tarrant Rushton in Dorset. The airfield is shut now of course but it remains an interesting and enigmatic place to wander around. The peri-track is still there along with parts of the runway and a variety of hangers and dispersal huts as well as a couple of memorials. It has a spectacular setting on top
of the Dorset downs near Wimborne (where Cobham remain based).
It was more famous as the departure point for the Pegasus Bridge and Arnhem gliders of course.
Your grandfather would have been based there so could be an interesting trip...
of the Dorset downs near Wimborne (where Cobham remain based).
It was more famous as the departure point for the Pegasus Bridge and Arnhem gliders of course.
Your grandfather would have been based there so could be an interesting trip...
Edited by ettore on Thursday 12th December 17:28
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