Girl, 15, died of 'abdominal injury' in Solent boat crash

Girl, 15, died of 'abdominal injury' in Solent boat crash

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Discussion

Chrisgr31

13,440 posts

254 months

Monday 24th May 2021
quotequote all
Maximus_Meridius101 said:
I believe he may have been distracted by the red funnel ferry, who’s wake he was using when he hit the buoy.

Surely as he was behind it, that shouldn’t have distracted him?

petop

2,135 posts

165 months

Monday 24th May 2021
quotequote all
Having a RYA Powerboat ticket and trained as boat op with the military, Southampton Water is the last place to go dicking around and lets face it, this is what happened. May have been a good day condition wise but its one of the busiest areas in the UK although of course you can hit a buoy anywhere. Trouble is you base yourself further up Soton Water you are not going to go far out with pax and associate fuel cost to more suitable areas. I used to come out of Lymington which gets you out to the Solent and better areas a lot quicker.

dhutch

Original Poster:

14,198 posts

196 months

Monday 24th May 2021
quotequote all
Jaguar steve said:
Stick Legs said:
This is a commercial outfit. I refuse to use the term professional. They are operating a business that uses a major shipping channel to provide thrills to members of the public. It's like offering high speed pillion rides around the M25.....

As a Ship's Master, and former Marine Pilot I have seen too many near misses between highspeed privately owned craft and other boats, shipping or structures and this is the sad consequence that the skipper of this boat just ran out of luck.
yes I agree 100%.

Except the skipper didn't just run out of luck though - there's a voluntary code of practice in place for high speed craft operators to follow as well as the legal requirement under the ColRegs to maintain an adequate look out at all times.

He ignored both.
I think this is it.

Personally I am largely against mandatory licensing for private craft over 40hp, which is they system Europe has, simply because as I understand it, the regulations do no improve the safety or number of incidents/injury/death, although I remain open to evidence to the contrary and can understand that to many it appears a bit mad you need a driving licence for even a little run about car (all be it, basically and modern car can do a ton easy, as well as weight a ton. E=MV^2 anyone?) but can take out a 255 hp racing boat with no qualifications, but the facts suggest that basically people don't, and a a lot of the incidents are of a type a nature and on a craft which wouldn't be covered anyway.

However it does stagger me that you can have a commercial operation, routinely taking paying customers, to dance around in the wake of a commercial ferry! Going at that speed, next to something that large, with the visibility reduction that has, is asking for trouble to the point wherein a way at least it would only a bouy they hit, not another boat load of people. Equally, something that might be acceptable risk as a one off, if you do it every day, not only increases to occurance of the risk, but also increases it incidentally, as human nature means that complacency will creep in even with the most diligent of helm/crew, and the commercial aspect of want to please, wanting to give value for money, wanting to get that google review or facebook video to go viral.


Daniel

MOTORVATOR

6,993 posts

246 months

Monday 24th May 2021
quotequote all
dhutch said:
Jaguar steve said:
Stick Legs said:
This is a commercial outfit. I refuse to use the term professional. They are operating a business that uses a major shipping channel to provide thrills to members of the public. It's like offering high speed pillion rides around the M25.....

As a Ship's Master, and former Marine Pilot I have seen too many near misses between highspeed privately owned craft and other boats, shipping or structures and this is the sad consequence that the skipper of this boat just ran out of luck.
yes I agree 100%.

Except the skipper didn't just run out of luck though - there's a voluntary code of practice in place for high speed craft operators to follow as well as the legal requirement under the ColRegs to maintain an adequate look out at all times.

He ignored both.
I think this is it.

Personally I am largely against mandatory licensing for private craft over 40hp, which is they system Europe has, simply because as I understand it, the regulations do no improve the safety or number of incidents/injury/death, although I remain open to evidence to the contrary and can understand that to many it appears a bit mad you need a driving licence for even a little run about car (all be it, basically and modern car can do a ton easy, as well as weight a ton. E=MV^2 anyone?) but can take out a 255 hp racing boat with no qualifications, but the facts suggest that basically people don't, and a a lot of the incidents are of a type a nature and on a craft which wouldn't be covered anyway.

However it does stagger me that you can have a commercial operation, routinely taking paying customers, to dance around in the wake of a commercial ferry! Going at that speed, next to something that large, with the visibility reduction that has, is asking for trouble to the point wherein a way at least it would only a bouy they hit, not another boat load of people. Equally, something that might be acceptable risk as a one off, if you do it every day, not only increases to occurance of the risk, but also increases it incidentally, as human nature means that complacency will creep in even with the most diligent of helm/crew, and the commercial aspect of want to please, wanting to give value for money, wanting to get that google review or facebook video to go viral.


Daniel
What on earth are you all on about?

The skipper was both qualified and insured as made mandatory by the Small Commercial Vessels COP as far as I can see.

MAIB have simply made interim recommendation that operators should consider following the additional voluntary COP at the present time.

Whether MCA or Harbours adopt that as a mandatory requirement in the future is a another matter but it will not change the fact that all commercial operations already have to be operated by qualified individuals, carry insurance and suitably risk assess their activity.

Mave

8,208 posts

214 months

Monday 24th May 2021
quotequote all
MOTORVATOR said:
What on earth are you all on about?

The skipper was both qualified and insured as made mandatory by the Small Commercial Vessels COP as far as I can see.

MAIB have simply made interim recommendation that operators should consider following the additional voluntary COP at the present time.

Whether MCA or Harbours adopt that as a mandatory requirement in the future is a another matter but it will not change the fact that all commercial operations already have to be operated by qualified individuals, carry insurance and suitably risk assess their activity.
It would be interesting to see what the risk assessment says about this kind of incident

Jaguar steve

9,232 posts

209 months

Monday 24th May 2021
quotequote all
MOTORVATOR said:
What on earth are you all on about?

The skipper was both qualified and insured as made mandatory by the Small Commercial Vessels COP as far as I can see.

MAIB have simply made interim recommendation that operators should consider following the additional voluntary COP at the present time.

Whether MCA or Harbours adopt that as a mandatory requirement in the future is a another matter but it will not change the fact that all commercial operations already have to be operated by qualified individuals, carry insurance and suitably risk assess their activity.
Yet despite all the qualifications, insurance and risk assessments that said OK, off you go Chap, the skipper failed in both the practice of good seamanship and his obligations to maintain a effective look out under the ColRegs and went head on into several tons worth of buoy killing somebody and injuring several others.

It's not like navigation buoys are practically invisible in the way a semi-submerged tree trunk or shipping container might perhaps be until it's too late to take avoiding action when you're low in the water and running at high speeds - they're meant to be easily spotted from some distance and anybody with the slightest familiarity with the area ought to know exactly where they all are.

I skipper fast RIB rides for families in the Thames estuary several times a year and cannot for one moment comprehend how anybody on the helm could possibly be paying so little attention to what they're doing or where they're heading to actually collide with something that big.


donutsina911

1,049 posts

183 months

Monday 24th May 2021
quotequote all
Jaguar steve said:
MOTORVATOR said:
What on earth are you all on about?

The skipper was both qualified and insured as made mandatory by the Small Commercial Vessels COP as far as I can see.

MAIB have simply made interim recommendation that operators should consider following the additional voluntary COP at the present time.

Whether MCA or Harbours adopt that as a mandatory requirement in the future is a another matter but it will not change the fact that all commercial operations already have to be operated by qualified individuals, carry insurance and suitably risk assess their activity.
Yet despite all the qualifications, insurance and risk assessments that said OK, off you go Chap, the skipper failed in both the practice of good seamanship and his obligations to maintain a effective look out under the ColRegs and went head on into several tons worth of buoy killing somebody and injuring several others.

It's not like navigation buoys are practically invisible in the way a semi-submerged tree trunk or shipping container might perhaps be until it's too late to take avoiding action when you're low in the water and running at high speeds - they're meant to be easily spotted from some distance and anybody with the slightest familiarity with the area ought to know exactly where they all are.

I skipper fast RIB rides for families in the Thames estuary several times a year and cannot for one moment comprehend how anybody on the helm could possibly be paying so little attention to what they're doing or where they're heading to actually collide with something that big.
Trouble is, the qualifications required are just so basic that they're almost worthless as a ticket. Used to run a RIB commercially in the Solent and IIRC it was Commercially Endorsed RYA Powerboat L2, so the bog standard ticket plus Sea Survival, First Aid, a valid medical and VHF - PB L2 is laughable as an requirement for operating anywhere remotely challenging (and the Solent is). The bar needs to be much higher for anyone taking paying passengers IMHO.

Stick Legs

4,825 posts

164 months

Monday 24th May 2021
quotequote all
donutsina911 said:
Trouble is, the qualifications required are just so basic that they're almost worthless as a ticket. Used to run a RIB commercially in the Solent and IIRC it was Commercially Endorsed RYA Powerboat L2, so the bog standard ticket plus Sea Survival, First Aid, a valid medical and VHF - PB L2 is laughable as an requirement for operating anywhere remotely challenging (and the Solent is). The bar needs to be much higher for anyone taking paying passengers IMHO.
You opinion is 100% correct and endorsed by me.

MOTORVATOR

6,993 posts

246 months

Monday 24th May 2021
quotequote all
Jaguar steve said:
MOTORVATOR said:
What on earth are you all on about?

The skipper was both qualified and insured as made mandatory by the Small Commercial Vessels COP as far as I can see.

MAIB have simply made interim recommendation that operators should consider following the additional voluntary COP at the present time.

Whether MCA or Harbours adopt that as a mandatory requirement in the future is a another matter but it will not change the fact that all commercial operations already have to be operated by qualified individuals, carry insurance and suitably risk assess their activity.
Yet despite all the qualifications, insurance and risk assessments that said OK, off you go Chap, the skipper failed in both the practice of good seamanship and his obligations to maintain a effective look out under the ColRegs and went head on into several tons worth of buoy killing somebody and injuring several others.

It's not like navigation buoys are practically invisible in the way a semi-submerged tree trunk or shipping container might perhaps be until it's too late to take avoiding action when you're low in the water and running at high speeds - they're meant to be easily spotted from some distance and anybody with the slightest familiarity with the area ought to know exactly where they all are.

I skipper fast RIB rides for families in the Thames estuary several times a year and cannot for one moment comprehend how anybody on the helm could possibly be paying so little attention to what they're doing or where they're heading to actually collide with something that big.
A totally different argument to what I responded to. The inference was that an unqualified and uninsured skipper, as is allowed in pleasure craft navigation, was a contributing factor to the incident which was totally incorrect and also instigated by a ships master that should know better.the rules applying to commercial charter.

As for seamanship and possible negligence that is a matter for other agencies than MAIB, and still ongoing as I understand it, so I shall refrain from proffering an opinion at this juncture. Exactly as I would were you to find yourself in a similar situation. beer

deeen

6,079 posts

244 months

Monday 24th May 2021
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Maximus_Meridius101 said:
Or someone who happens to live exactly where these guys were based ( Ocean Village in Southampton) and regularly talked to the guys who ran these outings, in the Marina side Bar / restaurant ( pitcher and piano). Who knew? I mean what are the chances?



The R.I.B. was moored on the jetty in the top of the picture there.

Edited by Maximus_Meridius101 on Sunday 23 May 18:04
What makes you think there was a pilot on board?

Jaguar steve

9,232 posts

209 months

Monday 24th May 2021
quotequote all
Stick Legs said:
donutsina911 said:
Trouble is, the qualifications required are just so basic that they're almost worthless as a ticket. Used to run a RIB commercially in the Solent and IIRC it was Commercially Endorsed RYA Powerboat L2, so the bog standard ticket plus Sea Survival, First Aid, a valid medical and VHF - PB L2 is laughable as an requirement for operating anywhere remotely challenging (and the Solent is). The bar needs to be much higher for anyone taking paying passengers IMHO.
You opinion is 100% correct and endorsed by me.
Me too.

I've done PB2 which was a insurance requirement to drive a RIB but also have been sailing since I was a kid in the '60s and have a Yachtmaster theory ticket and yes, from that perspective it's pretty obvious how basic PB2 actually is.

I'm not sure how a few hours experience on the water with an instructor and passing a simple multiple choice exam which anybody whose not actually fallen asleep could do puts someone in a position to go to sea completely unsupervised and with as much horsepower their wallet can provide either with or without paying passengers.

But regardless of how qualified you may or may not be anybody on the planet will tell you it's a Very Bad Thing Indeed to crash a boat into big heavy objects at high speeds - you certainly don't need a certificate from the RYA's neat little hierarchy of qualifications to realise that .

Jaguar steve

9,232 posts

209 months

Monday 24th May 2021
quotequote all
MOTORVATOR said:
...Stuff about boats.
Different other point entirely. Got it now. thumbup

dhutch

Original Poster:

14,198 posts

196 months

Monday 24th May 2021
quotequote all
MOTORVATOR said:
What on earth are you all on about?

The skipper was both qualified and insured as made mandatory by the Small Commercial Vessels COP as far as I can see.
Parallels where drawn with arrangements in France, where one of the major differences is that even the helm of a leisure craft needs to hold a certificate of compliance. This I object not directly relevant here, but us directly related.

Maximus_Meridius101

1,222 posts

36 months

Tuesday 25th May 2021
quotequote all
Jaguar steve said:
It's not like navigation buoys are practically invisible .
Normally I’d agree, however, in this case, there was a mitigating factor (if I recall correctly).

Jaguar steve said:
I skipper fast RIB rides for families in the Thames estuary several times a year and cannot for one moment comprehend how anybody on the helm could possibly be paying so little attention to what they're doing or where they're heading to actually collide with something that big.
I seem to recall that on that particular day, the chop was quite bad on that stretch. It’s entirely possible that either it camouflaged the buoy, especially given the skippers position in the boat, or that the boat was fired out of the water enough to deteriorate the function of the rudder(s) enough to make a planned ‘close pass’ a collision. That’s just my ( slightly hazy )recollection of the conditions on that day, I could be mis remembering.

Stick Legs

4,825 posts

164 months

Tuesday 25th May 2021
quotequote all
Maximus_Meridius101 said:
I seem to recall that on that particular day, the chop was quite bad on that stretch. It’s entirely possible that either it camouflaged the buoy, especially given the skippers position in the boat, or that the boat was fired out of the water enough to deteriorate the function of the rudder(s) enough to make a planned ‘close pass’ a collision. That’s just my ( slightly hazy )recollection of the conditions on that day, I could be mis remembering.
The rib isn't fitted with Radar.
The buoys on that stretch of water stand above the waterline at about 8- 10 feet. if you are going so fast you can't see one you are going too fast. Rule 6.
If you watch the track of the rib the cox of the rib was deliberately passing close to navigational marks as part of the 'show'.
He misjudged it. In my opinion as a marine professional he is guilty of the manslaughter of that girl and culpable for the injuries sustained by those people caused by his lack of judgement, contravention of rules and conduct contrary to the ordinary practice of good seamanship as defined by the IRPCS.


MOTORVATOR

6,993 posts

246 months

Tuesday 25th May 2021
quotequote all
Maximus_Meridius101 said:
I seem to recall that on that particular day, the chop was quite bad on that stretch. It’s entirely possible that either it camouflaged the buoy, especially given the skippers position in the boat, or that the boat was fired out of the water enough to deteriorate the function of the rudder(s) enough to make a planned ‘close pass’ a collision. That’s just my ( slightly hazy )recollection of the conditions on that day, I could be mis remembering.
Your knowledge level of operating ribs with twin outboard motors is clearly up there with the media fool that considers Single handed operation of a vessel can be translated as one handed stunts. rolleyes

dangerousB

1,693 posts

189 months

Wednesday 26th May 2021
quotequote all
Maximus_Meridius101 said:
I seem to recall that on that particular day, the chop was quite bad on that stretch. It’s entirely possible that either it camouflaged the buoy
The North-West Netley buoy is 10ft in diameter, 15ft high and weighs 5 tonnes. It's not remotely possible that any "chop" camouflaged it from view on that day.
Maximus_Meridius101 said:
or that the boat was fired out of the water enough to deteriorate the function of the rudder(s)
Pardon??!!!

Stick Legs said:
In my opinion as a marine professional he is guilty of the manslaughter of that girl and culpable for the injuries sustained by those people caused by his lack of judgement
I am not a marine professional, but I agree (I do spend a fair amount of time on the water though).

First and foremost he has a duty of care for all of those on board, irrespective of the purpose of the ride. Having watched the MAIB video, my initial thought was that he just took his eye off the ball, concentrating more on the passage of the ferry than on his own course. A mistake if that were the case, but given his position, more a matter of negligence (IMO).

My second thought was that he shouldn't have been doing what he was doing anyway. Not in an estuary and certainly not with passengers. I'll caveat that with the fact that I've not been on that stretch of water, but I'm assuming it's (like most estuaries) a pretty busy area. Fair play out in open water, but that still comes with its own degree of risk and I'd want my passengers to be very well briefed on what those risks were before they agreed to getting involved.

Like a lot accident causation though, what happened on that day was that the holes in the cheese aligned. I feel desperately sorry for the poor girl who lost her life (and her family) and for those injured - they were just after a great time out on the water. Giving them that really isn't rocket science.

Maximus_Meridius101

1,222 posts

36 months

Wednesday 26th May 2021
quotequote all
dangerousB said:
Maximus_Meridius101 said:
or that the boat was fired out of the water enough to deteriorate the function of the rudder(s)
Pardon??!!!

.
If the boat gets airborne, the steering won’t work. It’s a bit like a car flying off a bridge, the steering won’t have any effect if the wheels are off the ground. It’s possible ( given the conditions / sea state ) that he couldn’t steer out of the way / avoid the buoy, because the boat was sufficiently out of the water to render any steering attempts futile, at exactly the point where it didn’t want to be.

Maximus_Meridius101

1,222 posts

36 months

Wednesday 26th May 2021
quotequote all
Stick Legs said:
The rib isn't fitted with Radar.


I’m fairly sure it was.

Stick Legs said:
The buoys on that stretch of water stand above the waterline at about 8- 10 feet.
I know, I use that stretch of water frequently. I’m very familiar with those particular buoys.

Stick Legs said:
if you are going so fast you can't see one you are going too fast. Rule 6.
That’s true.

MOTORVATOR

6,993 posts

246 months

Wednesday 26th May 2021
quotequote all
Jaguar steve said:
Maximus_Meridius101 said:
If the boat gets airborne, the steering won’t work. It’s a bit like a car flying off a bridge, the steering won’t have any effect if the wheels are off the ground. It’s possible ( given the conditions / sea state ) that he couldn’t steer out of the way / avoid the buoy, because the boat was sufficiently out of the water to render any steering attempts futile, at exactly the point where it didn’t want to be.
That's an excuse not an explanation.

Here:

Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid a collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

This is all you need to know.
He's just desperate to have an opinion.

A boat doesn't stay at a constant speed in the air for ten seconds or 200 yards without defying the laws of physics, quite apart from the fact there is a video record showing the boat well planted and clearly being driven by the motors for an extended period after crossing the wake.




They don't know, we don't know, exactly what led to the failure to adjust course away from the static object and Sticks calling Manslaughter is extremely unprofessional in my mind given that he would be aware of the ongoing investigation(s).

All for a discussion but not blatant speculation and premature judgement given the far reaching consequences this could have for both individuals involved and many others.