Red Arrows post 2025 Hawk retirement ?

[shouldbworking]

You have to wonder what's going on when there's a tender out to spend 300-500k a year on a new logistics system for an aircraft that's being retired.. and we already presumably have a system for the t2 that would do the job

https://www.digitalmarketplace.service.gov.uk/digi...

[Tony1963]

shouldbworking said:

You have to wonder what's going on when there's a tender out to spend 300-500k a year on a new logistics system for an aircraft that's being retired.. and we already presumably have a system for the t2 that would do the job

https://www.digitalmarketplace.service.gov.uk/digi...

Or the upgrade to the Jags just before they were retired. And the upgrade of hardened aircraft shelters so that the WE177s could be stored in the flooring instead of in the special weapons dump. Or... it goes on and on. That’s the price, I’m afraid.

[Tony1963]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Don’t worry, it was tedious for us too!

[aeropilot]

Tony1963 said:

shouldbworking said:

You have to wonder what's going on when there's a tender out to spend 300-500k a year on a new logistics system for an aircraft that's being retired.. and we already presumably have a system for the t2 that would do the job

https://www.digitalmarketplace.service.gov.uk/digi...

Or the upgrade to the Jags just before they were retired. And the upgrade of hardened aircraft shelters so that the WE177s could be stored in the flooring instead of in the special weapons dump. Or... it goes on and on. That’s the price, I’m afraid.

Or the number of times millions have been spent on runway resurfacing.....for them to announce the closure of the base soon afterwards.

[Tony1963]

aeropilot said:

Or the number of times millions have been spent on runway resurfacing.....for them to announce the closure of the base soon afterwards.

Or refurbish all of the airmen's married quarters, then close the base.

Funny.

[808 Estate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJJfwSHVd-c

[IanH755]

Whilst T2's have an almost identical set of G limits as a T1 (in the same configuration) the T2's have a slower roll rate, less available thrust due to increased airframe weight and a higher fuel usage over time than a T1. Plus there's no money being put aside for a T2 modification programme for adding a smoke pod (dyed diesel and pumps) and the internal piping for the dye to reach the tailpipes and the extra wiring to the cockpit to control it all etc.

The slower roll rate could lead to very close formation issues but I don't know if the rate reduction is significant enough TBF.
Increased airframe weight means less thrust performance from the same engine.
The lower perceived thrust causes acceleration and fuel usage issues.
The higher fuel usage means you need more fuel for the same display making the jets even more heavier/slower/less manoeuvrable.

The Royal Saudi AF "Green Hawks" who also use Hawk T1 clones (T-65/T-65A) as their display aircraft are going through exactly the same issues now as they are also reaching the point where their very old T-65 Hawks will have to make way for a T-165 Hawk(T2 clone) at some point so maybe there might be a combined RSAF/RAF mod programme put forward to spread costs, who knows!

IIRC only the Indian AF uses their Hawk T2 clone (T-132) for displays and sadly a few have already crashed.

[anonymous-user]

None of which is relevant when there are only 28 T2s and fast jet training takes up all of the the fleet.

[aeropilot]

pablo said:

None of which is relevant when there are only 28 T2s and fast jet training takes up all of the the fleet.

Which really highlights there no longer being any justification for having a dedicated 9-ship display team left over from the days when the RAF had a fleet of 100+ Gnats or Hawk's in its fast jet training fleet needed to supply a front line squadron that is also but a fraction of the size from the days of the late 60's to early 90's.
The T2 fleet IIRC, isn't even owned by the RAF, they are all owned by the PFI group contracted by the MOD, and as such are excluded from display flying.

[wolfie28]

Interesting to see what happens. Rumours were going round of the Red Arrows being disbanded when I was on the team in the early 90's so nothing new there. The Hawk had plenty of life then so aircraft was not an issue; however as the fleet gets older and the fatigue life increases it will become an issue. I do not see a replacement unless they go propeller. Typhoon would be a great sight but the logistics alone would be a nightmare. It was bad enough getting 3 Typhoon's ready for a display weekend let alone 10 aircraft!!!

[Tony1963]

But for me, one Typhoon performing is far better than any number of Hawks. A bit like when I’ve been to Brands Hatch and at lunch an old F1 car does a few demo laps: everyone wants to see and hear it.

[Seight_Returns]

I'd choose to watch a Typhoon over a Reds display any day too.

But they fulfill different purposes - a Typhoon display is a potent demonstration of our war-fighting technology and presumed capability. A dedicated aerobatic display team, whilst obviously still a military unit, flies the flag in a much softer way and can further the UK's interests in ways that showing off our front line assets can't and where doing so might even be provocative.

[aeropilot]

wolfie28 said:

Interesting to see what happens. Rumours were going round of the Red Arrows being disbanded when I was on the team in the early 90's so nothing new there. The Hawk had plenty of life then so aircraft was not an issue; however as the fleet gets older and the fatigue life increases it will become an issue. I do not see a replacement unless they go propeller. Typhoon would be a great sight but the logistics alone would be a nightmare. It was bad enough getting 3 Typhoon's ready for a display weekend let alone 10 aircraft!!!

I don't think 9(10) red painted Tiffie's are viable, but rather the expense of a seperate Reds infrastructure given its not as it was in the old days part of CFS, a reduced to4/5 ship of the Tranche 1 Typhoons that have been slated for retirement, and attached to the Typhoon OCU wouldn't be more expensive than the bill for the Reds now as a seperate entity, especially given they will be having to operate an aircraft that will then be no longer in general RAF service?

I suspect that going part-time rather than a full time, will mean reduced display calender as well, but in todays world, with a much reduced display scene anyway, I don't think that would be a bad thing.

None of that is going to happen of course, but I just think that the justification of keeping the Reds in their current form as a dedicated full-time display team of 9 soon to be defunct in service aircraft is now gone.

[AlexIT]

It's surely a time of changes. Also the Frecce Tricolori are preparing the switch to a new aircraft, the M-345.
I think it would be a shame losing the Red Arrows and that an effort should be made to keep them in service.

[anonymous-user]

aeropilot said:

pablo said:

None of which is relevant when there are only 28 T2s and fast jet training takes up all of the the fleet.

Which really highlights there no longer being any justification for having a dedicated 9-ship display team left over from the days when the RAF had a fleet of 100+ Gnats or Hawk's in its fast jet training fleet needed to supply a front line squadron that is also but a fraction of the size from the days of the late 60's to early 90's.
The T2 fleet IIRC, isn't even owned by the RAF, they are all owned by the PFI group contracted by the MOD, and as such are excluded from display flying.

Agree about what value a 9 ship display team offers RAF or U.K. Plc as a whole. The plan was to supplement the red fleet with aircraft from 736 and 100 Sqns when they disband, that way there are enough T1s to see the reds through to 2030

T2 fleet is MOD, you’re thinking of Ascent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Military_Flying_T... There is/was a T2 role demo display team.

[eccles]

Tony1963 said:

Dashnine said:

The problem with the faster jets is they take longer to turn around. I remember seeing the Thunderbirds in their F-16s and they were out of sight half the time.

The Typhoon can easily, in a solo display, perform within an airfield’s boundary. So could the Tornado. And the Harrier lol

I would disagree on the Tornado. Having worked with the solo Hawk display aircraft, then getting posted onto Tornados and working with the solo Gr1 display aircraft, the Tornado would take a huge amount more room than a Hawk, and would usually be well outside most RAF airfield boundaries!

[Tony1963]

eccles said:

I would disagree on the Tornado. Having worked with the solo Hawk display aircraft, then getting posted onto Tornados and working with the solo Gr1 display aircraft, the Tornado would take a huge amount more room than a Hawk, and would usually be well outside most RAF airfield boundaries!

Well, I watched the Tornado display at Duxford a few years ago and was mightily impressed with how tight the manoeuvres were. It was demonstrating close support. I’ve no doubt it was lighter than usual!

[anonymous-user]

And the tonka is an infinitely more interesting aircraft; the epitome of cold war brutishness. A beautiful thing.

[M22s]

Tony1963 said:

My view, as an ex-RAF cynic, still in aviation.

The Red Arrows are pretty much irrelevant. The displays are tame and quiet, the aircraft outdated.
The cost to the RAF is huge, with few air shows left to make it all worthwhile.
Their safety record isn’t something to be proud of.

I’d rather see the money spent on the BBMF and some fuel for Typhoon and F-35 displays.

Agree with all of this - I’ve thought for a long time red arrows are a bit boring.

The Italian frecce tricolori are far more impressive to watch.

[aeropilot]

M22s said:

Tony1963 said:

My view, as an ex-RAF cynic, still in aviation.

The Red Arrows are pretty much irrelevant. The displays are tame and quiet, the aircraft outdated.
The cost to the RAF is huge, with few air shows left to make it all worthwhile.
Their safety record isn’t something to be proud of.

I’d rather see the money spent on the BBMF and some fuel for Typhoon and F-35 displays.

Agree with all of this - I’ve thought for a long time red arrows are a bit boring.

The Italian frecce tricolori are far more impressive to watch.

I find all the display teams 'boring' these days.....and tbh have done for decades. The only team I used to make an effort to watch back in the day was the Patrouille Swiss when they were still flying the lovely Hunter.