Network rail logic

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surveyor

Original Poster:

17,767 posts

183 months

Sunday 28th March 2021
quotequote all
Our nearest neighbour on one side is network rail with a signal box and level crossing. A certain amount of disruption was envisaged.

Last night between 9:30pm and 7:30am they were doing stuff to the level crossing noisily. More is planned on Monday and Wednesday night.

Now I get this must be done when the network is closed. However this line appears to be closed every Sunday, and certainly is this week. So why would they choose to work overnight? And if they do why stop, rather than just get ok with it and finish the job?

Oh and a special place in hell for Machines that beep in reverse!

gts.981

136 posts

44 months

Sunday 28th March 2021
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Assuming the level crossing was there BEFORE you moved in, I guess you’re going to have to put your big boy trousers on and suck it up......

AJB88

12,263 posts

170 months

Sunday 28th March 2021
quotequote all
What line is it? Just because you havent seen any trains doesnt mean its closed.

surveyor

Original Poster:

17,767 posts

183 months

Sunday 28th March 2021
quotequote all
AJB88 said:
What line is it? Just because you havent seen any trains doesnt mean its closed.

Doncaster to Lincoln.

Level crossing is controlled by adjacent signal box where no one is home. And no trains..

Same very Sunday...

surveyor

Original Poster:

17,767 posts

183 months

Sunday 28th March 2021
quotequote all
gts.981 said:
Assuming the level crossing was there BEFORE you moved in, I guess you’re going to have to put your big boy trousers on and suck it up......
To an extent. Prepared for noise. Not ineptitude... although I’m becoming more resigned to it!

texaxile

3,289 posts

149 months

Sunday 28th March 2021
quotequote all
I'm not sure, but are Balfour responsible for most NR projects?.

Might be that when the schedule of works are planned, a bod in the office assumes that working overnight on a crossing will cause minimal disruption to any rail traffic and schedules work for the weekend when the network is very quiet of passenger traffic, but doesn't specifically look at whether that particular branch line is opened or closed at the weekend or not. He may follow a set of parameters when arranging for any work to be done on any crossing.

I'm just speculating of course, but we only used to get 3 or 4 days warning at the most for any works on the branch line and it is 9/10 times done on a Sunday when there's a reduced service, replaced by a bus. In the past, the first we've known about it is a T-3 possession flashing up on the describer screen...then one call later it's a case of "Oh yeah, sorry meant to tell you..."


AJB88

12,263 posts

170 months

Sunday 28th March 2021
quotequote all
Not sure what level crossing your at but there was a possession in the area last night 2200-0840, works need to be completed when a possession of the line is granted. last night there was a number of jobs being done, some track inspections, ballast drops (involving maintenance trains), some rail repairs and some resignalling work.

a lot of these jobs cant be done when the line is live.

surveyor

Original Poster:

17,767 posts

183 months

Sunday 28th March 2021
quotequote all
AJB88 said:
Not sure what level crossing your at but there was a possession in the area last night 2200-0840, works need to be completed when a possession of the line is granted. last night there was a number of jobs being done, some track inspections, ballast drops (involving maintenance trains), some rail repairs and some resignalling work.

a lot of these jobs cant be done when the line is live.
Blaxton. I’m guessing is the case. But the lines not live today as the signal box is unstaffed.

AJB88

12,263 posts

170 months

Sunday 28th March 2021
quotequote all
surveyor said:
Blaxton. I’m guessing is the case. But the lines not live today as the signal box is unstaffed.
Yeh Park Drain LC to Auckley LC was under possession last night for reballast worksite was Finningley LC to Wroot Lane LC.

RRV's in use and Bobcats.

sherman

13,065 posts

214 months

Sunday 28th March 2021
quotequote all
Is it not just a case of the work team is employed 6 nights a week and get sunday off unless needed and getvpaid silly amounts for overtime.
Its the railways its all down to the unions. No common sense needs to be considered.

Slackline

411 posts

133 months

Sunday 28th March 2021
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surveyor said:
Oh and a special place in hell for Machines that beep in reverse!
See if you can have a word with them, a lot of machines can be fitted with a sounder that produces a static noise instead of the beep. The sound doesn't travel as far and is far less annoying!

AJB88

12,263 posts

170 months

Sunday 28th March 2021
quotequote all
oh and the signal box will soon be open 24/7 wink

surveyor

Original Poster:

17,767 posts

183 months

Sunday 28th March 2021
quotequote all
As long as they keep off the bloody grass when parking! To be fair as far as I can tell it is open 24 x 6.

The house was built with sound insulation in my mind so they don’t disturb me at all. Always pleased when the crossing siren gets switched off though.

We are planning air conditioning for at least our bedroom which faces the road by summer as I have reservations about sleep with the level crossing racket.

Rick101

6,959 posts

149 months

Monday 29th March 2021
quotequote all
I'd imagine whist work was ongoing the Level Crossing was closed to road traffic.

That some diversion to take bearing in mind as someone has posted above it's not just Finningley closed, all the adjoining ones would be closed too.

AJB88

12,263 posts

170 months

Monday 29th March 2021
quotequote all
Rick101 said:
as someone has posted above it's not just Finningley closed, all the adjoining ones would be closed too.
That somebody is your ex-colleague wink from MFK haha.

Rick101

6,959 posts

149 months

Monday 29th March 2021
quotequote all
sherman said:
Is it not just a case of the work team is employed 6 nights a week and get sunday off unless needed and getvpaid silly amounts for overtime.
Its the railways its all down to the unions. No common sense needs to be considered.
Unions deal with working hours, rightly so but I'm not sure it's relevant in your example.

If you're employed to work six nights a week that's what you would reasonably expect to work.
Night working is incredibly disruptive and takes it's toll. I recall listening to a WHO briefing saying they considered it as dangerous as a carcinogen and could result in taking ten years off your life.
Anyway, that's the job so people get on with it and build their life around it. Their families suffer it, childcare arrangements too. Lots to consider.

Just to simply say we'll work a day shift instead is not simple. Regardless of people or machine resources you've straight away lost the previous night shift and the following night shift. That work needs to be made up and would result in an additional night at the end, possibly more as the delivery plan will be all out off kilter chucking a random day shift in.

It's not impossible, it's just not as simple as some think.

andy97

4,691 posts

221 months

Monday 29th March 2021
quotequote all
surveyor said:
Our nearest neighbour on one side is network rail with a signal box and level crossing. A certain amount of disruption was envisaged.

Last night between 9:30pm and 7:30am they were doing stuff to the level crossing noisily. More is planned on Monday and Wednesday night.

Now I get this must be done when the network is closed. However this line appears to be closed every Sunday, and certainly is this week. So why would they choose to work overnight? And if they do why stop, rather than just get ok with it and finish the job?

Oh and a special place in hell for Machines that beep in reverse!
The train and freight operating companies (TOCs and FOCs) need to railway lines to be open as much as possible to move the people and goods about that we all depend on, and there is a great seal of pressure to do as much maintenance as possible whilst the railways are still operating. However, there are some maintenance operations that require the railway to be shut to enable them to be carried out, this is known as a “possession”.
Possessions are often at night because the railways need to run during the day. Simple as that. And the TOCs and FOCs (and their customers) won’t tolerate the interruptions to their business for days at a time, hence railway maintenance is often mobilised and demobilised every night for relatively short durations of work over a period of several nights rather than just carrying on until the work is finished. It is just not feasible to stop the trains running and diversions are not as easy as on the road network. This is also why the cost of maintaining a railway is very high.
TOCs and FOCs pay for access to the rail network and there are commercial contracts in place with Network Rail for that access. If NR take a possession and then fail to hand the railway back to the operators at the agreed times for the days activities they have to pay compensation to the operators.
Of course if you would rather adversely affect the economic activity of thousands of people then fair enough.
Machines “beep” for safety reasons, or would you rather kill someone?



Edited by andy97 on Monday 29th March 12:35

surveyor

Original Poster:

17,767 posts

183 months

Monday 29th March 2021
quotequote all
andy97 said:
surveyor said:
Our nearest neighbour on one side is network rail with a signal box and level crossing. A certain amount of disruption was envisaged.

Last night between 9:30pm and 7:30am they were doing stuff to the level crossing noisily. More is planned on Monday and Wednesday night.

Now I get this must be done when the network is closed. However this line appears to be closed every Sunday, and certainly is this week. So why would they choose to work overnight? And if they do why stop, rather than just get ok with it and finish the job?

Oh and a special place in hell for Machines that beep in reverse!
The train and freight operating companies (TOCs and FOCs) need to railway lines to be open as much as possible to move the people and goods about that we all depend on, and there is a great seal of pressure to do as much maintenance as possible whilst the railways are still operating. However, there are some maintenance operations that require the railway to be shut to enable them to be carried out, this is known as a “possession”.
Possessions are often at night because the railways need to run during the day. Simple as that. And the TOCs and FOCs (and their customers) won’t tolerate the interruptions to their business for days at a time, hence railway maintenance is often mobilised and demobilised every night for relatively short durations of work over a period of several nights rather than just carrying on until the work is finished. It is just not feasible to stop the trains running and diversions are not as easy as on the road network. This is also why the cost of maintaining a railway is very high.
TOCs and FOCs pay for access to the rail network and there are commercial contracts in place with Network Rail for that access. If NR take a possession and then fail to hand the railway back to the operators at the agreed times for the days activities they have to pay compensation to the operators.
Great. So why take possession at night when the line is unused the next day? Why not do the work then? less sleep disruption and presumably less overtime. Or keep at it with a second shift so that it's done rather than coming back and having to take all the covers off again?

P5BNij

15,764 posts

105 months

Monday 29th March 2021
quotequote all
It's possible that the line was due to be used by a booked (or special) working the following day which (for whatever reason) didn't actually run. It's also possible that the men on the ground might be sent to work somewhere else at short notice instead. Probably not the answer you might be looking for, but things aren't always what they seem on the railway. A huge chunk of the work I do involves possessions and we do try our best to keep noise and disruption to a minimum, but in some cases it just isn't possible wink

andy97

4,691 posts

221 months

Monday 29th March 2021
quotequote all
surveyor said:
andy97 said:
surveyor said:
Our nearest neighbour on one side is network rail with a signal box and level crossing. A certain amount of disruption was envisaged.

Last night between 9:30pm and 7:30am they were doing stuff to the level crossing noisily. More is planned on Monday and Wednesday night.

Now I get this must be done when the network is closed. However this line appears to be closed every Sunday, and certainly is this week. So why would they choose to work overnight? And if they do why stop, rather than just get ok with it and finish the job?

Oh and a special place in hell for Machines that beep in reverse!
The train and freight operating companies (TOCs and FOCs) need to railway lines to be open as much as possible to move the people and goods about that we all depend on, and there is a great seal of pressure to do as much maintenance as possible whilst the railways are still operating. However, there are some maintenance operations that require the railway to be shut to enable them to be carried out, this is known as a “possession”.
Possessions are often at night because the railways need to run during the day. Simple as that. And the TOCs and FOCs (and their customers) won’t tolerate the interruptions to their business for days at a time, hence railway maintenance is often mobilised and demobilised every night for relatively short durations of work over a period of several nights rather than just carrying on until the work is finished. It is just not feasible to stop the trains running and diversions are not as easy as on the road network. This is also why the cost of maintaining a railway is very high.
TOCs and FOCs pay for access to the rail network and there are commercial contracts in place with Network Rail for that access. If NR take a possession and then fail to hand the railway back to the operators at the agreed times for the days activities they have to pay compensation to the operators.
Great. So why take possession at night when the line is unused the next day? Why not do the work then? less sleep disruption and presumably less overtime. Or keep at it with a second shift so that it's done rather than coming back and having to take all the covers off again?
I suspect that either the line wasn’t planned to be closed next day or, alternatively, there may have been working taking place on the line that you may not necessarily have been aware of (signalling, telecoms, etc) that still needed access but also needed deconfliction from other activity.
You live near a railway line, it’s a fact of life that most maintenance takes place at night or on bank holidays. The teams will do their best to use quieter machines and to warn residents in advance but many activities are just not possible to be totally quiet. You have to accept it and get used to it.
I live near an airport, it’s the same principle. No point me moaning about aircraft noise.

Edited by andy97 on Monday 29th March 13:44