Discussion
Scabutz said:
Teddy Lop said:
No expert on Malaysian culture but I'd wager talking about such stuff is not the done thing, compared to the west. Could also explain why he'd go to inexplicable seeming lengths to cover up the deed, family shame and all that.
So then why do it in such a way. Just quietly go snd hang yourself in the woods.There was a study years ago and they classified typed of suicide and one definitely involved taking others with them, but in those instances they almost wanted the infamy in death.
I do though think out of all the possibilities that pilot suicide is the most likely. But it still has a fair few unanswered questions.
Also employee death in service benefits to family might kick in. Wouldn't be the first.
Not saying it's what I believe happened just answering the specific...
dvs_dave said:
MarkwG said:
Not semantics, thanks, analysis of the data. Eight times barely registers as a statistic, let alone qualifies as common. Naturally, it's heart breaking & horrendous for anyone involved, but exaggerating the likelihood isn't helpful.
Ok cool. What do you think happened, and why?Dylano said:
This is the best interview I've heard on the subject, the interviewee Jeff Wise seems very well researched and knowledgeable and presents lots of still as yet unanswered questions without any wild speculation or conspiracy theories.
His theories are so far-fetched they wouldn’t look out of place in a Bond novel. Russian agents hacking into the avionics and landing the plane in Kazakhstan indeed. Then the inmarsat data being altered even though it was the first time they themselves had used the data to track a planes movement.Then when presented with actual bits of plane he doubles down and says they were planted by a Russian shill. Complete fantasy!
ChocolateFrog said:
youngsyr said:
Does it though - he had to take deliberate actions at the start of the flight (overpower/lock Co pilot out), lower cabin pressure, change course, then just sit there for 6 hours doing absolutely nothing.
Not forgetting killing 238 people along with himself.
Any suicide is difficult to understand, but this must be the most bizarre one ever?
As soon as he'd done what he needed to do he would have just taken off his oxygen mask and fallen unconscious with the rest. Not forgetting killing 238 people along with himself.
Any suicide is difficult to understand, but this must be the most bizarre one ever?
People who do this stuff are cowards so there's no way he stayed awake until the end.
And do cabin crew have a longer duration air supply than passengers? Again, I think it logical that they would, seeing as they're responsible for the safety of the passengers.
youngsyr said:
Out of morbid intetest, how long would it take you to die from a depressuriaed cabin at 30,000ft? Is it longer than 6 hours - I suspect it might be?
And do cabin crew have a longer duration air supply than passengers? Again, I think it logical that they would, seeing as they're responsible for the safety of the passengers.
You’d pass out from hypoxia within a few minutes, and everyone onboard would be dead likely within 10-15 mins. Like drowning, you can’t survive very long without oxygen.And do cabin crew have a longer duration air supply than passengers? Again, I think it logical that they would, seeing as they're responsible for the safety of the passengers.
The passenger supplementary oxygen system has to work for at least 10 mins. Basically just enough time for the aircraft to safely descend from cruise altitude to below 10,000ft where supplementary oxygen is no longer required to survive.
Flight crew supplemental oxygen system has to last for at least 2 hours.
dvs_dave said:
youngsyr said:
Out of morbid intetest, how long would it take you to die from a depressuriaed cabin at 30,000ft? Is it longer than 6 hours - I suspect it might be?
And do cabin crew have a longer duration air supply than passengers? Again, I think it logical that they would, seeing as they're responsible for the safety of the passengers.
You’d pass out from hypoxia within a few minutes, and everyone onboard would be dead likely within 10-15 mins. Like drowning, you can’t survive very long without oxygen.And do cabin crew have a longer duration air supply than passengers? Again, I think it logical that they would, seeing as they're responsible for the safety of the passengers.
The passenger supplementary oxygen system has to work for at least 10 mins. Basically just enough time for the aircraft to safely descend from cruise altitude to below 10,000ft where supplementary oxygen is no longer required to survive.
Flight crew supplemental oxygen system has to last for at least 2 hours.
If cabin crew have 2 hours to try to get into the cockpit, then that makes ghe suicide even less likely, doesn't it? 2 hours is a long time to work on a door and/or try to communicate.
youngsyr said:
Do you have a source for that first part - people climb everest and spend hours at 26,000 ft+ without supplemental oxygen, although they typically acclimatise first. Internet seems to think that you can survive for hours to days at that pressure?
If cabin crew have 2 hours to try to get into the cockpit, then that makes ghe suicide even less likely, doesn't it? 2 hours is a long time to work on a door and/or try to communicate.
The cabin crew aren’t the flight crew.If cabin crew have 2 hours to try to get into the cockpit, then that makes ghe suicide even less likely, doesn't it? 2 hours is a long time to work on a door and/or try to communicate.
Numerous easily googled sources, such as;
Time of useful consciousness.
Hypoxia: Definition, Causes, Symptoms and Treatment
And yes, if you’re an Everest free climber, you can specifically train hard and acclimatise to improve your resilience to hypoxia. But there’s only so much you can do. At 30,000ft+ there’s simply insufficient oxygen to sustain normal human life.
Edited by dvs_dave on Monday 13th March 01:21
dvs_dave said:
youngsyr said:
Do you have a source for that first part - people climb everest and spend hours at 26,000 ft+ without supplemental oxygen, although they typically acclimatise first. Internet seems to think that you can survive for hours to days at that pressure?
If cabin crew have 2 hours to try to get into the cockpit, then that makes ghe suicide even less likely, doesn't it? 2 hours is a long time to work on a door and/or try to communicate.
The cabin crew aren’t the flight crew.If cabin crew have 2 hours to try to get into the cockpit, then that makes ghe suicide even less likely, doesn't it? 2 hours is a long time to work on a door and/or try to communicate.
Numerous easily googled sources, such as;
Time of useful consciousness.
Hypoxia: Definition, Causes, Symptoms and Treatment
And yes, if you’re an Everest free climber, you can specifically train hard and acclimatise to improve your resilience to hypoxia. But there’s only so much you can do. At 30,000ft+ there’s simply insufficient oxygen to sustain normal human life.
Edited by dvs_dave on Monday 13th March 01:21
As I said, many people have been known to survive (and function) without supplemental O2 above 26,000 ft for much longer than your stated 10-15 minutes.
And I specifically asked for cabin crew O2 supply duration, you replied with a flight crew furation of 2 hours. It's not me at fault for any confusion.
Edited by youngsyr on Monday 13th March 09:34
Dylano said:
So assuming the pilot locked the co-pilot out of the cockpit and depressurised the cabin and assuming it takes a reasonable length of time for the lack of oxygen to take effect, how come no one on board used either their mobile phones or the cabin flight phone to call anyone?
30,000 feet is 5.5miles, which I believe is outside of the range of a cell phone even if you're directly above it - I've certainly never seen reception on my phone at that height, so that would rule out mobile phones.The passengers would have been unconscious within about 15 minutes - well within the time it would have taken the cabin crew to try to work out what was happening assuming radio silence from the cockpit and a locked cockpit door. You could also assume that the Captain broadcast a lie about the drop in cabin pressure and even the locked door to stall the cabin crew and first officer. Either way, we can reasonably rule out any actions from the passengers.
That is why I asked about how long the cabin crew O2 lasts - if longer than 15 minutes, which I suspect it would be as they have to assist passengers in an emergency, then that might be a hole in the murder-suicide theory.
Dylano said:
So assuming the pilot locked the co-pilot out of the cockpit and depressurised the cabin and assuming it takes a reasonable length of time for the lack of oxygen to take effect, how come no one on board used either their mobile phones or the cabin flight phone to call anyone?
The Russians cut the phone line obviouslyJust spoke to a former air stewardess that I know, apparently on her aircraft the passengers and the cabin crew share the same O2 supply, which lasts 12 minutes, but there are also O2 cylinders on board that the crew can switch to which last 20-40 minutes each depending on flow rate.
So, it seems that the cabin crew would have had much more than 15 minutes to work out what was going on and take action, and potentially over an hour, a factor that seems to be missing from the murder-suicide theory.
You would have to assume that if the first officer were locked out of the cockpit, he would immediately have tried to return as soon as the passenger O2 masks dropped, which in turn would have happened very soon after the cabin pressure dropped, which would have given the captain very little time between the cabin pressure dropping and the crew being aware something untoward was happening.
So, it seems that the cabin crew would have had much more than 15 minutes to work out what was going on and take action, and potentially over an hour, a factor that seems to be missing from the murder-suicide theory.
You would have to assume that if the first officer were locked out of the cockpit, he would immediately have tried to return as soon as the passenger O2 masks dropped, which in turn would have happened very soon after the cabin pressure dropped, which would have given the captain very little time between the cabin pressure dropping and the crew being aware something untoward was happening.
youngsyr said:
None of those sources give a guide to how long it actually takes to die without supplemental oxygen at 30,000ft.
As I said, many people have been known to survive (and function) without supplemental O2 above 26,000 ft for much longer than your stated 10-15 minutes.
And I specifically asked for cabin crew O2 supply duration, you replied with a flight crew furation of 2 hours. It's not me at fault for any confusion.
If the info linked doesn’t give you enough of an idea as to what would happen, then I suggest you go and “do your own research” and report back, rather than expecting to be spoon fed on this tangential line of enquiry.As I said, many people have been known to survive (and function) without supplemental O2 above 26,000 ft for much longer than your stated 10-15 minutes.
And I specifically asked for cabin crew O2 supply duration, you replied with a flight crew furation of 2 hours. It's not me at fault for any confusion.
And as I said, cabin crew are not flight crew. Only flight crew have additionally mandated oxygen supplies. Not sure what’s difficult to understand about that? Cabin crew may have mobile setups, but no additional duration supplies are mandated. That’s not to say they may have spares that could give an individual more time, but that’d be on a case by case basis. And again, feel free to “do your own research” and report back if you think it has any relevance to the outcome.
dvs_dave said:
youngsyr said:
None of those sources give a guide to how long it actually takes to die without supplemental oxygen at 30,000ft.
As I said, many people have been known to survive (and function) without supplemental O2 above 26,000 ft for much longer than your stated 10-15 minutes.
And I specifically asked for cabin crew O2 supply duration, you replied with a flight crew furation of 2 hours. It's not me at fault for any confusion.
If the info linked doesn’t give you enough of an idea as to what would happen, then I suggest you go and “do your own research” and report back, rather than expecting to be spoon fed on this tangential line of enquiry.As I said, many people have been known to survive (and function) without supplemental O2 above 26,000 ft for much longer than your stated 10-15 minutes.
And I specifically asked for cabin crew O2 supply duration, you replied with a flight crew furation of 2 hours. It's not me at fault for any confusion.
And as I said, cabin crew are not flight crew. Only flight crew have additionally mandated oxygen supplies. Not sure what’s difficult to understand about that? Cabin crew may have mobile setups, but no additional duration supplies are mandated. That’s not to say they may have spares that could give an individual more time, but that’d be on a case by case basis. And again, feel free to “do your own research” and report back if you think it has any relevance to the outcome.
youngsyr said:
ChocolateFrog said:
youngsyr said:
Does it though - he had to take deliberate actions at the start of the flight (overpower/lock Co pilot out), lower cabin pressure, change course, then just sit there for 6 hours doing absolutely nothing.
Not forgetting killing 238 people along with himself.
Any suicide is difficult to understand, but this must be the most bizarre one ever?
As soon as he'd done what he needed to do he would have just taken off his oxygen mask and fallen unconscious with the rest. Not forgetting killing 238 people along with himself.
Any suicide is difficult to understand, but this must be the most bizarre one ever?
People who do this stuff are cowards so there's no way he stayed awake until the end.
And do cabin crew have a longer duration air supply than passengers? Again, I think it logical that they would, seeing as they're responsible for the safety of the passengers.
When flying unpressurised General Aviation aircraft above 10,000 feet you need to be on some sort of oxygen. Commercial aircraft oxygen generators (what the passengers get) are designed to generate oxygen for long enough to allow the aircraft to descend from cruise to below 10k feet. Flight deck crew are on actual oxygen (carried as liquid or gas).
48k said:
youngsyr said:
ChocolateFrog said:
youngsyr said:
Does it though - he had to take deliberate actions at the start of the flight (overpower/lock Co pilot out), lower cabin pressure, change course, then just sit there for 6 hours doing absolutely nothing.
Not forgetting killing 238 people along with himself.
Any suicide is difficult to understand, but this must be the most bizarre one ever?
As soon as he'd done what he needed to do he would have just taken off his oxygen mask and fallen unconscious with the rest. Not forgetting killing 238 people along with himself.
Any suicide is difficult to understand, but this must be the most bizarre one ever?
People who do this stuff are cowards so there's no way he stayed awake until the end.
And do cabin crew have a longer duration air supply than passengers? Again, I think it logical that they would, seeing as they're responsible for the safety of the passengers.
When flying unpressurised General Aviation aircraft above 10,000 feet you need to be on some sort of oxygen. Commercial aircraft oxygen generators (what the passengers get) are designed to generate oxygen for long enough to allow the aircraft to descend from cruise to below 10k feet. Flight deck crew are on actual oxygen (carried as liquid or gas).
1) how long would it take you to die from a depressuriaed cabin at 30,000ft?
2) do cabin crew have a longer duration air supply than passengers?
youngsyr said:
48k said:
youngsyr said:
ChocolateFrog said:
youngsyr said:
Does it though - he had to take deliberate actions at the start of the flight (overpower/lock Co pilot out), lower cabin pressure, change course, then just sit there for 6 hours doing absolutely nothing.
Not forgetting killing 238 people along with himself.
Any suicide is difficult to understand, but this must be the most bizarre one ever?
As soon as he'd done what he needed to do he would have just taken off his oxygen mask and fallen unconscious with the rest. Not forgetting killing 238 people along with himself.
Any suicide is difficult to understand, but this must be the most bizarre one ever?
People who do this stuff are cowards so there's no way he stayed awake until the end.
And do cabin crew have a longer duration air supply than passengers? Again, I think it logical that they would, seeing as they're responsible for the safety of the passengers.
When flying unpressurised General Aviation aircraft above 10,000 feet you need to be on some sort of oxygen. Commercial aircraft oxygen generators (what the passengers get) are designed to generate oxygen for long enough to allow the aircraft to descend from cruise to below 10k feet. Flight deck crew are on actual oxygen (carried as liquid or gas).
1) how long would it take you to die from a depressuriaed cabin at 30,000ft?
2) do cabin crew have a longer duration air supply than passengers?
1) As mentioned, you'll be unconscious after 1-3 minutes depending on your fitness and a few other factors. Once you're unconscious then again it's a matter of minutes before your heart stops.
2) Cabin crew have a different supply to passengers. It differs from aircraft to aircraft but generally they have a portable bottle and mask system whereas the cabin is on generators. From memory there has to be 10% more masks than seats in the aircraft which allows for things like babies and cabin crew if they were not at their station when the cabin depressurised. TL;DR; I'd say yes it's reasonable to assume cabin crew oxygen system would last longer than the passenger system. But again, Google is probably your friend.
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff