Any 'shoestring' sailors?

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Disastrous

10,072 posts

216 months

Tuesday 21st February 2023
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Enjoyed the thread OP - thanks for sharing so far.

My only humble contribution would be in the naming of the new vessel. If the old one was Ada and the new one Astra, “Ad Astra” would seem like a suitably dramatic name going forward…

D1bram

Original Poster:

1,500 posts

170 months

Tuesday 21st February 2023
quotequote all
Disastrous said:
Enjoyed the thread OP - thanks for sharing so far.

My only humble contribution would be in the naming of the new vessel. If the old one was Ada and the new one Astra, “Ad Astra” would seem like a suitably dramatic name going forward…
Thanks!

And I quite like Ad Astra, however we have loads of documentation for her and it seems originally her name was Tigh Na Mara - Gaelic for house by the sea which we rather like

Arnold Cunningham

3,758 posts

252 months

Tuesday 21st February 2023
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hidetheelephants said:
Do not butt the plywood directly against the hull; it creates a hard point. It should be spaced off a few mm.
Yes. Moreover, not just a hard point but also pulls in slightly as the resin goes off. But this is an old hurlet we're talking about, I think there's likely a good bit of thickness on the topsides GRP there, so I reckon method 3 will be fine. Nevertheless, for completeness sake, there are a couple of different techniques to this - different boatbuilders all have their preferences.

Method 1 : Crestomer 2" wide bit of foam, about 1/2" thick, with a 45 degree shamfer on the edgers where the bulkhead is going to go. Make bulkhead a nice tight fit to the foam and glass it all in nice and tight with the laminate tight into the corners, down the chamfer and a couple of inches beyond.

Method 2 : Leave a looser fit (let's say 1/2" to 3/4" all round) on the bulkhead and DO NOT laminate hard into the corners - use one of these to put a radius in the corners: https://www.ecfibreglasssupplies.co.uk/paddle-roll...

Method 3 : If your topsides are a bit thicker, or are cored, or you're just not too worried, you can just laminate them in up tight. Worst case, if the laminate is a bit thin you can see where it pulls very slightly as the resin dried.

It is possible to over think it, for sure, but loads and loads of places just laminate it in and be done with it. You're not trying to be Jason Carrington building the next IMOCA.

Disastrous

10,072 posts

216 months

Tuesday 21st February 2023
quotequote all
D1bram said:
Disastrous said:
Enjoyed the thread OP - thanks for sharing so far.

My only humble contribution would be in the naming of the new vessel. If the old one was Ada and the new one Astra, “Ad Astra” would seem like a suitably dramatic name going forward…
Thanks!

And I quite like Ad Astra, however we have loads of documentation for her and it seems originally her name was Tigh Na Mara - Gaelic for house by the sea which we rather like
By some coincidence, also the name of the house (by the sea) that i grew up in!

Nice name smile

D1bram

Original Poster:

1,500 posts

170 months

Tuesday 21st February 2023
quotequote all
Arnold Cunningham said:
Yes. Moreover, not just a hard point but also pulls in slightly as the resin goes off. But this is an old hurlet we're talking about, I think there's likely a good bit of thickness on the topsides GRP there, so I reckon method 3 will be fine. Nevertheless, for completeness sake, there are a couple of different techniques to this - different boatbuilders all have their preferences.

Method 1 : Crestomer 2" wide bit of foam, about 1/2" thick, with a 45 degree shamfer on the edgers where the bulkhead is going to go. Make bulkhead a nice tight fit to the foam and glass it all in nice and tight with the laminate tight into the corners, down the chamfer and a couple of inches beyond.

Method 2 : Leave a looser fit (let's say 1/2" to 3/4" all round) on the bulkhead and DO NOT laminate hard into the corners - use one of these to put a radius in the corners: https://www.ecfibreglasssupplies.co.uk/paddle-roll...

Method 3 : If your topsides are a bit thicker, or are cored, or you're just not too worried, you can just laminate them in up tight. Worst case, if the laminate is a bit thin you can see where it pulls very slightly as the resin dried.

It is possible to over think it, for sure, but loads and loads of places just laminate it in and be done with it. You're not trying to be Jason Carrington building the next IMOCA.
Ah my local supplier ECF!

Just to clarify then... what you are calling method 3 is my Option A in the diagram I posted earlier? Or at least very similar? It does appear to me that Hurley had put them in up against the hull. I don't mind going with one of the more involved methods, if it's going to be better long term - I only want to do the job once!


Edited by D1bram on Tuesday 21st February 20:23

Arnold Cunningham

3,758 posts

252 months

Tuesday 21st February 2023
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Nah. Your option one is something else.

My method 3 is to just glass it in. Which if is what Hurley did originally, will therefore be fine.

Your option one has special extra bits, woven and all sorts. Even dwarf bulkheads.

Do have a look at what was done originally, but with all due respect, it’s just a low performance old fashioned cruiser. It’s lovely, but doesn’t need anything crazy doing to make it plenty strong enough.

D1bram

Original Poster:

1,500 posts

170 months

Tuesday 21st February 2023
quotequote all
Arnold Cunningham said:
Nah. Your option one is something else.

My method 3 is to just glass it in. Which if is what Hurley did originally, will therefore be fine.

Your option one has special extra bits, woven and all sorts. Even dwarf bulkheads.

Do have a look at what was done originally, but with all due respect, it’s just a low performance old fashioned cruiser. It’s lovely, but doesn’t need anything crazy doing to make it plenty strong enough.
Oh I’m all for simple! The dwarf bulkhead though is simply because I won’t be able to get to the rear to glass that side - if you see what I mean

Arnold Cunningham

3,758 posts

252 months

Tuesday 21st February 2023
quotequote all
In that case there is perhaps and argument for the dwarf ones, but I’m still sceptical if it’s necessary. I’d glass the back side of the bulkhead first and then put extra glass on the side you can access.

On mine, I glassed the bulkheads off the boat, and then glassed them in using my option 2 (my topsides are not cored and are fairly thin).




OutInTheShed

7,368 posts

25 months

Tuesday 21st February 2023
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The thing is, it is a low tech GRP sailing boat.

It may change shape quite a lot, when it goes from sat on its keel in the yard, to floating with the keel hanging on the boat.
That may cause the bulkhead to look like a 'hard spot' in the topsides.

People have been known to glass in the bulkheads while the boat is floating. That is perhaps a bit extreme, but you can think about how the boat is supported, in the factory, maybe there would be a cradle that fits the hull and the keel would not be bolted on yet?
A compromise is to take some of the weight on a cradle, maybe via f-off ratchet straps.

A bloke I used to drink with worked the hoist in a well known Solent yard. He would comment on the quality of hulls according to how much lowering went on between the keel first touching the concrete and the weight going off the slings.


If your 'tabbing' of the bulkhead is substantial, it becomes a ring, the plywood in the middle doesn't do much.

These are things we think about, beating through big waves when the boat starts to creak!

Is this bulkhead taking the rig loads?

It's a nice boat by the way, it won't be hard to keep it seaworthy, but getting the fundamentals 'just so' helps in the long run IMHO.

D1bram

Original Poster:

1,500 posts

170 months

Wednesday 22nd February 2023
quotequote all
OutInTheShed said:
The thing is, it is a low tech GRP sailing boat.

It may change shape quite a lot, when it goes from sat on its keel in the yard, to floating with the keel hanging on the boat.
That may cause the bulkhead to look like a 'hard spot' in the topsides.

People have been known to glass in the bulkheads while the boat is floating. That is perhaps a bit extreme, but you can think about how the boat is supported, in the factory, maybe there would be a cradle that fits the hull and the keel would not be bolted on yet?
A compromise is to take some of the weight on a cradle, maybe via f-off ratchet straps.

A bloke I used to drink with worked the hoist in a well known Solent yard. He would comment on the quality of hulls according to how much lowering went on between the keel first touching the concrete and the weight going off the slings.


If your 'tabbing' of the bulkhead is substantial, it becomes a ring, the plywood in the middle doesn't do much.

These are things we think about, beating through big waves when the boat starts to creak!

Is this bulkhead taking the rig loads?

It's a nice boat by the way, it won't be hard to keep it seaworthy, but getting the fundamentals 'just so' helps in the long run IMHO.
You make a great point! On Ada, the companionway step slotted in between the quarterberths. On the hard it was loose, on the water a much snugger fit!

It's not a bulkhead taking the rig as far as I can tell, but I suppose they all do their bit.

Having slept on this I am going to get it into place with a small gap round (it will screw into bearers either side of the engine to hold it) then tab / glass it in from the front side. I will coat the whole thing in epoxy first to make sure it is water proof and put a layer of glass over the back where it will be sitting in the bilge.



dhutch

14,198 posts

196 months

Wednesday 22nd February 2023
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OutInTheShed said:
A bloke I used to drink with worked the hoist in a well known Solent yard. He would comment on the quality of hulls according to how much lowering went on between the keel first touching the concrete and the weight going off the slings.
I can only imagine. You can play the same game with steal hulled narrowboats I believe.

Doing work on the water us good I'm sure, but as you say, likely overkill for most applications, if you at least take good account of how the boat is held at the time.

Arnold Cunningham

3,758 posts

252 months

Wednesday 22nd February 2023
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I'll be honest, for a structural bulkhead I really don't like the single side fixing, For my bow bulkhead I had a similar challenge, and cut a hole in it:

You can see the spacer blocks I used here, as well. The hole was just big enough that I could get my head and shoulder through to glass the fwd side


But it all came out OK:


And then I a cosmetic panel with foam backed headlining that sits over that - it looks smart.

Regarding the general squishiness of a boat, a yacht (with mast & rig tensions too), certainly do change shape, even between port and starboard tack.
I'd aim to put it all back together as close as possible to like for like. Do you have more pics of the "before" of the main bits? Specifically, if it's the bulkheads I'm thinking of, while it won't be taking the mast load directly (I think I saw a structure under the mast foot?), it will be having to take some of the loads that prevent the hull sides squishing in too much when you load up the rig (or lift it).


bmwmike

6,918 posts

107 months

Wednesday 22nd February 2023
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Enjoyed this thread. Took me back to happy memories as I group up around boats as my parents were into them and certainly on a shoestring as they didn't have much money. All the holidays were on the boat on the bristol channel. All the repairs being done DIY including as I recall melting lots of lead wheel balance weights to make a keel, fixing a huge hole after one of them blew over, and racing with waves coming over the top. Westerly centaur rings a bell but there were a few upto around 33' iirc. I didn't have much interest as a sea sick teenager but as I'm older a labour of love would be a good distraction.

Best wishes with it, looks like you'll have lots of happy family memories.

D1bram

Original Poster:

1,500 posts

170 months

Wednesday 22nd February 2023
quotequote all
Thanks BMWMike - sadly the kids are not so keen!

Arnold, you've given me another lightbulb moment! That bulkhead does indeed have a hatch cut out in it - if I put it back slightly larger then I can probably lean through to tab it. On the right in this photo, I'll just fit the locker floor afterwards;




I can't find a photo of the main bulkhead (separating the main cabin from the heads and fore cabin) but yes, this sits directly under the mast step.

Agreed though, forces will move around all over the place!


Arnold Cunningham

3,758 posts

252 months

Wednesday 22nd February 2023
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"A thing" I did. You can see it above, but worth drawing attention to.
I laminated the surface of the bulkhead off the boat, and then white still green, trimmed the lobster antennae around the edges.

I would then cut strips of 4" wide, "whatever" GRP and wet them on an assembly table, before then laying them onto the join (before the binder had dissolved). This meant all I was doing through the hole was putting the wet csm in and rollering it into place - not trying to put dry mat on and then laminate it in place.

There is an large element of whatever works for you, but I did find this helped and kept things quite tidy. In a production setup, I think you much more tend to just go for it all in place - but that isn't the setup I was working within.

D1bram

Original Poster:

1,500 posts

170 months

Monday 27th February 2023
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Another weekend of boatwork...

Up early Saturday to pick up our wood work, which consists of the new rubbing strake and toe rail (no pictures just yet) and the new companionway sections which are just lovely!



Made of Sapele, they'll have a coat of teak oil before being fitted.

So, back to Saturday. Bec and I cracked on inside, she's got the forecabin looking much smarter already (again, sorry no photos) and I set to work finishing getting the last bits of companionway bulkhead out and tidied up. I then set Bec in (I doubt I'd fit!) to make a start on painting out the cockpit locker while access is good.




Sunday, I had a few hours up there alone so I cracked on with removing the existing skin fittings and seacocks. The smallest gave up without a fight but the 1inch cockpit fittings and the old blakes heads fittings took ages between them, but it's done and new are ordered.

What a motley crew!



I realise many would disagree with the removal of proper blakes type seacocks, but these are fittings which we no longer require and will be glassed up. I'm also a total convert to Trudesign composite fittings; no corrosion, no electrolytic reactions and they can be epoxy bonded to the hull. I won't bin the Blakes though, I've told my stepson if he cleans them up he can keep whatever they can be sold for.

Back home, we've cracked on oiling the Iroko flooring (looking amazing!) and stained the softwood steps the boat came with ahead of a coat of varnish.






Still lots to do to get afloat, but I thought I'd share where I am with budget.

The boat was ostensibly free, though I settled around £500 of the previous owners remaining contract and bought various bits from him too (all with inherent value) totalling £700 including a nice 6hp outboard which I might end up selling on.

So £1200 purchase cost, I then set a £5000 budget for the work:





It's a really good job I'm not in this for the money!



Edited by D1bram on Monday 27th February 12:21

Arnold Cunningham

3,758 posts

252 months

Monday 27th February 2023
quotequote all
Nice.

I suspect you're using Danboline for the locker & bilge paint? If you can be minded, it's really nice to belt sand or rough DA the compartment back and roller on a fresh coat of generic flowcoat. Danboline is easier, but the fresh flowcoat is good at being a bit more resistant to "everything" it might encounter in a bilge or locker.

D1bram

Original Poster:

1,500 posts

170 months

Thursday 23rd March 2023
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Fortunately lack of updates doesn't mean we haven't been busy! So in no particular order our recent work has included;

- Work at home on the new companionway bulkhead, looking lovely having been stained and then coated in West Systems Epoxy and 207 (special finish) hardener. Sadly I will need to make a cut to fit into the boat, but it will be low down and out of sight, and it will be rejoined in situ. There's surrounding woodwork going on at the same time too to rebuild this entire area.







- Fitted the rudder, though we've found it must have been spaced off the hull where the tube bolts off so I have some nylon/HDPE to make up some spacers and we will have a fettle.



- Fitted the new companionway, this has highlighted the need to make new washboards! Needs staining and the sikaflex trimmed



- Fitted a window, this was really satisfying. It's a frameless window which is bolted into place. Instead of sikaflex or similar we used a single side bedding tape from Scarpa which you stick in place to the boat then offer up the window, bolt it up and the tape forms a watertight gasket. Unfortunately removing and cleaning the residue from the tape which had been covering the window holes was a right chore, we had arrived later on last Sunday so this job saw us working into the dark.








- Leaky deck fittings have been reseated, rotten backing plates replaced with marine ply (epoxied)

- All skin fittings replaced with Trudesign, matching seacocks going on this weeked

- Redundant skin fittings glassed up

- Painting as and where we can

This weekend we will sort the rudder, hopefully fit the other window and carry on with the rebuild behind where the replacement bulkhead goes - lots of parallel work going on.

Oh, I also bought us a mobile shed/workshop as I'm sick of using my focus as a van. Longer term we will turn this into a bit of a day/adventure/camper van.


hidetheelephants

23,763 posts

192 months

Thursday 23rd March 2023
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D1bram said:
- Fitted the rudder, though we've found it must have been spaced off the hull where the tube bolts off so I have some nylon/HDPE to make up some spacers and we will have a fettle.

Excellent stuff. You won't be after extra jobs to do but that rudder looks to be an awful shape, transom hung rudders are always a bit of a compromise but it should be vaguely aerofoil shaped with a fine taper down to the trailing edge which should be no more than 10-15mm thick; a new rudder might be a good winter project to keep motivation up in the long dark months.

Jaguar steve

9,232 posts

209 months

Thursday 23rd March 2023
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+1 for Scapa tape - it's brilliant stuff.

No more faffing about with tubes of gloop that gets everywhere you don't want it for me. smile