Any 'shoestring' sailors?
Discussion
D1bram said:
The boat has come equipped with a 4hp 4T, which might prove to be a little optimistic, though my dad sailed a Leisure 22 with a 4hp for many years and while it's a lighter boat it's considerable superstructure meant it suffered in windy conditions under motor.
My last boat was a Leisure 20 with a 5HP longshaft engine. Nothing bigger would fit in the well.That was OK for pottering about with but not really enough to make much headway in heavy weather.
Having the well is good since it helps keep the prop submerged.
But also agree - 5hp is 5hp. On my 27' powerboat I use a 5hp on the bracket in the marinas for "noise abatement" and 3.5mph is the max speed I can get with it. If you can get a sailpower type motor - they have more blade area and less pitch, so give a bit more thrust. But that aside, yeah, you've just got to acknowledge the motor is what it is and plan your journey accordingly.
But also agree - 5hp is 5hp. On my 27' powerboat I use a 5hp on the bracket in the marinas for "noise abatement" and 3.5mph is the max speed I can get with it. If you can get a sailpower type motor - they have more blade area and less pitch, so give a bit more thrust. But that aside, yeah, you've just got to acknowledge the motor is what it is and plan your journey accordingly.
Agree Centaurs are a decent boat, more of a floating caravan type but they don't sail badly all considered in my experience. I had them on my radar too, as you can get a decent one these days for £5-6k (still far more than I paid for the Hurley) but I decided I didn't want anything quite that big as firstly running costs are step up from a 22(ish) foot boat and secondly if the family don't take to it I'll be sailing single handed. Though hopefully they will love it!
As there's a bit of interest I thought I'd add a bit more detail and keep a running tally of what it takes to get on the water cost wise for this first season.
We don't really have a fixed budget in mind, but we certainly don't have deep pockets... we're getting married in October so it will be an expensive year!
Firstly, I paid £1400 for the boat - this included the suzuki 4hp outboard and a nearly new inflatable with 2.5hp outboard (both so far unseen) as well as everything in the boat. There's a lot of junk, including out of date packets of rice and copies of Viz... but there's also a Standard Horizon Chart Plotter, Simrad Autohelm, ancient depth sounder and VHF, Roller headsail, good main and other as yet to be uncovered sails. Basically we're not sure what have but there's plenty to sort out.
Then came my bill from the marina yard it's currently at - £160 for the next month. This is where I believe you need to be canny on a budget; nice marina's and yards are a luxury and can be extremely expensive! A launch from there will be £135.
We joined our local Yacht Club, £250 for a family membership. I think this is good value as the club offers moorings, storage etc at a reasonable cost along with all the other usual benefits; dinghy sailing with courses for the kids, social, advice etc... Fingers crossed we can get a mooring there this year (allocated on a points system, of which we have 0!) as otherwise it will be the marina for us this year which will be great but blow our budget.
The guy I bought from has loads of paint he bought with good intentions, so I will see what I end up with before buying any. One job we do want to look at urgently though is the rudder tube which is one of a few known weak spots on these boats - it's accessible just about via the void beneath the cockpit floor but I'm not exactly slight and I'm not sure taking an angle grinder and other tools into such a confined space is a great idea, so I will be cutting an inspection hatch into the back of the cockpit sole and in anticipation have bought a suitable marine hatch for £25.
Insurance will be £80ish, but I have yet to arrange cover as I need the sail number which I need to get back to the boat to look up.
So total so far, including the insurance is £2,050
Here are few more picture from Sunday, the deck looks awful! but it's just flaking paint it's very solid even with my 18stone crashing about. The tabernacle should clean up fine too
As there's a bit of interest I thought I'd add a bit more detail and keep a running tally of what it takes to get on the water cost wise for this first season.
We don't really have a fixed budget in mind, but we certainly don't have deep pockets... we're getting married in October so it will be an expensive year!
Firstly, I paid £1400 for the boat - this included the suzuki 4hp outboard and a nearly new inflatable with 2.5hp outboard (both so far unseen) as well as everything in the boat. There's a lot of junk, including out of date packets of rice and copies of Viz... but there's also a Standard Horizon Chart Plotter, Simrad Autohelm, ancient depth sounder and VHF, Roller headsail, good main and other as yet to be uncovered sails. Basically we're not sure what have but there's plenty to sort out.
Then came my bill from the marina yard it's currently at - £160 for the next month. This is where I believe you need to be canny on a budget; nice marina's and yards are a luxury and can be extremely expensive! A launch from there will be £135.
We joined our local Yacht Club, £250 for a family membership. I think this is good value as the club offers moorings, storage etc at a reasonable cost along with all the other usual benefits; dinghy sailing with courses for the kids, social, advice etc... Fingers crossed we can get a mooring there this year (allocated on a points system, of which we have 0!) as otherwise it will be the marina for us this year which will be great but blow our budget.
The guy I bought from has loads of paint he bought with good intentions, so I will see what I end up with before buying any. One job we do want to look at urgently though is the rudder tube which is one of a few known weak spots on these boats - it's accessible just about via the void beneath the cockpit floor but I'm not exactly slight and I'm not sure taking an angle grinder and other tools into such a confined space is a great idea, so I will be cutting an inspection hatch into the back of the cockpit sole and in anticipation have bought a suitable marine hatch for £25.
Insurance will be £80ish, but I have yet to arrange cover as I need the sail number which I need to get back to the boat to look up.
So total so far, including the insurance is £2,050
Here are few more picture from Sunday, the deck looks awful! but it's just flaking paint it's very solid even with my 18stone crashing about. The tabernacle should clean up fine too
I used to do a bit of single/short handed cruising on the West Coast of Scotland - Drascombe Drifter (original model), then onto a Mk1 Cornish Crabber. Loved it - very much cheap and cheerful, and while you were more vulnerable in more exposed areas, the size and shallow draft meant you could more easily find somewhere to tuck into at night that afforded better protection than the middle of the recognised anchorages.
I likened it to hiking, but being able to take the (small) kitchen sink with you. Also seemed to let you get get closer to wildlife as well.
Latterly moved up to larger yachts (Fisher Freeward 25 and Hunter Legend 30) before having to pack sailing in completely, but really hope to go back to a smaller boat up there when I find more time (and somewhere decent to keep it).
Drascombe we had was the inboard version which I liked a lot, despite the amount of cabin space it took up - did keep things warm. Had a proper sea toilet with no seacocks, just the inlet and outlet plumbed into upright pipes glassed into the hull below the waterline .................
I likened it to hiking, but being able to take the (small) kitchen sink with you. Also seemed to let you get get closer to wildlife as well.
Latterly moved up to larger yachts (Fisher Freeward 25 and Hunter Legend 30) before having to pack sailing in completely, but really hope to go back to a smaller boat up there when I find more time (and somewhere decent to keep it).
Drascombe we had was the inboard version which I liked a lot, despite the amount of cabin space it took up - did keep things warm. Had a proper sea toilet with no seacocks, just the inlet and outlet plumbed into upright pipes glassed into the hull below the waterline .................
Yidwann said:
I have always wanted a Westerly Centaur...... they are so s
te they have a wistful charm about them, and they are everywhere. My friend who is a boat broker says look around enough and you could probably get one for free. Even if I just had one to tidy up and moored on a buoy mooring on a pretty estuary somewhere and eat fish and chips on the back of it, that would do me. Once you're out on the water, you're doing the same thing as everyone else, just without the horrendous costs.
Great project you have a head of you there, it is a very pretty boat!
Don't knock the Centaur, motors well, sails well, fits in tight spots and brilliant family boats as safe and unassuming. te they have a wistful charm about them, and they are everywhere. My friend who is a boat broker says look around enough and you could probably get one for free. Even if I just had one to tidy up and moored on a buoy mooring on a pretty estuary somewhere and eat fish and chips on the back of it, that would do me. Once you're out on the water, you're doing the same thing as everyone else, just without the horrendous costs.Great project you have a head of you there, it is a very pretty boat!
Edited by Yidwann on Tuesday 1st March 12:47
J3JCV said:
Don't knock the Centaur, motors well, sails well, fits in tight spots and brilliant family boats as safe and unassuming.
Haha, I don't knock them, hence I'd like one, especially the bilge keel plusses. Thats a very tidy looking boat you have there, not wanting to thread hijack, but have you done much to the interior? Yidwann said:
Haha, I don't knock them, hence I'd like one, especially the bilge keel plusses. Thats a very tidy looking boat you have there, not wanting to thread hijack, but have you done much to the interior?
I replaced the fore cabin headlining with a new kit from Hawke House and painted out the 1/4 berths, so nothing drastic. £5 to 8k buys you a really good Centaur and super easy to maintain. I've moved on again from that one in to a larger Westerly which is less relevant to this thread, but I'm a huge fan of what can be done on a shoestring budget and kinda wish I was still in that sub 30' 1970's boat bracket. Costs just grow exponentially as the length goes up. Agreed. 30 and under, there's quite a few clubs (I'm still a member of one) where you can DIY most things. They even have their own tractor and cradle for launch & recovery. So it all works out well for the members. The moment you start wanting marina facilities rather than say, a mooring, along with paid craftsmen, the cost skyrockets. If I ever have a yacht again, DIYing the maintenance would be a must for me.
Lovely looking Centaur JC3V, what Westerly replaced her? I'm a fan of the Westerly brand.
Small update, we spent last Sunday afternoon just clearing and assessing; binned absolutely loads of junk and got the cabin looking better already. Dropped the roller headsail which was a challenge as the halyard was wrapped around the forestay - will replace the halyards anyway.
Low point was discovering that the 'good' mainsail is actually ripped badly along the foot and part way up the luff. Fortunately there is a spare though it is a bit baggy, another item on the longer term list.
Also got under the cockpit and confirmed the rudder tube is the mild steel original - to be replaced!
A few general pictures from that day
Junk!
More junk!
Tidied forecabin
Knackered mainsail...
First chance of a beer on board!
Small update, we spent last Sunday afternoon just clearing and assessing; binned absolutely loads of junk and got the cabin looking better already. Dropped the roller headsail which was a challenge as the halyard was wrapped around the forestay - will replace the halyards anyway.
Low point was discovering that the 'good' mainsail is actually ripped badly along the foot and part way up the luff. Fortunately there is a spare though it is a bit baggy, another item on the longer term list.
Also got under the cockpit and confirmed the rudder tube is the mild steel original - to be replaced!
A few general pictures from that day
Junk!
More junk!
Tidied forecabin
Knackered mainsail...
First chance of a beer on board!
Grabbed an early finish last night so headed up with my brother. Set him to work sanding the bottom while I started looking at the seacocks...
Seacocks are something of a necessary evil in my view, holes in a hull are far from ideal but sometimes unavoidable so making sure that seacocks are sound and serviceable is a priority.
I'd given a bit of thought to this and had in mind replacing them all with Trudesign composite type. Plastic might seem counterintuitive but these are just as strong as metal and without the corrosion or electrolytic concerns.
First hit was the sink drain, I knew it was pretty rough so go it ground out (managed to nip the gelgoat but I can fix that easily) and it pulled straight out along with the backing plate...
Somehow it still closes though!
Moving to the heads, I started grinding away the paint and realised this one was different...
Yep, both heads valves are the blakes type, very solid and not needing replacement as they can be reground and greased
Cockpit is the ball valve type but, they're in good condition so I'll leave them for this year. Undecided whether to replace the sink drain or simply glass it up and do away with a sink (put a work top in and then just use a washing up bowl).
Finally, had a play with the chart/galley table; slides out to the galley, then another section slides out from underneath. I love stuff like this about the boat;
Seacocks are something of a necessary evil in my view, holes in a hull are far from ideal but sometimes unavoidable so making sure that seacocks are sound and serviceable is a priority.
I'd given a bit of thought to this and had in mind replacing them all with Trudesign composite type. Plastic might seem counterintuitive but these are just as strong as metal and without the corrosion or electrolytic concerns.
First hit was the sink drain, I knew it was pretty rough so go it ground out (managed to nip the gelgoat but I can fix that easily) and it pulled straight out along with the backing plate...
Somehow it still closes though!
Moving to the heads, I started grinding away the paint and realised this one was different...
Yep, both heads valves are the blakes type, very solid and not needing replacement as they can be reground and greased
Cockpit is the ball valve type but, they're in good condition so I'll leave them for this year. Undecided whether to replace the sink drain or simply glass it up and do away with a sink (put a work top in and then just use a washing up bowl).
Finally, had a play with the chart/galley table; slides out to the galley, then another section slides out from underneath. I love stuff like this about the boat;
Well done, don't forget to drop the keels and check/replace the bolts. Many folk ignore this as it's a PITA (and potentially expensive) but necessary IMHO on old bilge keel yachts.
Old kit left behind by PO's are sometimes quite useful/interesting/valuable but is usually just a lot of junk that you have to dispose of!
Keep us up to date with progress?
Old kit left behind by PO's are sometimes quite useful/interesting/valuable but is usually just a lot of junk that you have to dispose of!
Keep us up to date with progress?
Arnold Cunningham said:
Agreed. 30 and under, there's quite a few clubs (I'm still a member of one) where you can DIY most things. They even have their own tractor and cradle for launch & recovery. So it all works out well for the members. The moment you start wanting marina facilities rather than say, a mooring, along with paid craftsmen, the cost skyrockets. If I ever have a yacht again, DIYing the maintenance would be a must for me.
I am moving away from the South East and thought my dream might on hold as where to do something like whilst living in Bristol.... then found this place https://www.burnhamonseamotorboatandsailingclub.co... which sounds very much like what you describe, sounds brilliant. Wonder if I can sort this house move, get a 997 and a Centaur all in one year. pequod said:
Well done, don't forget to drop the keels and check/replace the bolts. Many folk ignore this as it's a PITA (and potentially expensive) but necessary IMHO on old bilge keel yachts.
Old kit left behind by PO's are sometimes quite useful/interesting/valuable but is usually just a lot of junk that you have to dispose of!
Keep us up to date with progress?
His is a fin keel if the pictures are right?Old kit left behind by PO's are sometimes quite useful/interesting/valuable but is usually just a lot of junk that you have to dispose of!
Keep us up to date with progress?
hidetheelephants said:
pequod said:
Well done, don't forget to drop the keels and check/replace the bolts. Many folk ignore this as it's a PITA (and potentially expensive) but necessary IMHO on old bilge keel yachts.
Old kit left behind by PO's are sometimes quite useful/interesting/valuable but is usually just a lot of junk that you have to dispose of!
Keep us up to date with progress?
His is a fin keel if the pictures are right?Old kit left behind by PO's are sometimes quite useful/interesting/valuable but is usually just a lot of junk that you have to dispose of!
Keep us up to date with progress?
D1bram said:
Lovely looking Centaur JC3V, what Westerly replaced her? I'm a fan of the Westerly brand.
I bought a Westerly Conway, last of the Laurent Giles Westerly models. 36' but still bilge keels. issues you have with bigger boats are things like having 10 seacocks to service /change... I'm a huge fan of Trudesign, I fitted some 10 years ago to a boat and they are still 100% fine now, maintenance free!
Have fun with the 22, such a fantastic boat as its 100% a large yacht shrunk to a manageable size.
D1bram said:
hidetheelephants said:
pequod said:
Well done, don't forget to drop the keels and check/replace the bolts. Many folk ignore this as it's a PITA (and potentially expensive) but necessary IMHO on old bilge keel yachts.
Old kit left behind by PO's are sometimes quite useful/interesting/valuable but is usually just a lot of junk that you have to dispose of!
Keep us up to date with progress?
His is a fin keel if the pictures are right?Old kit left behind by PO's are sometimes quite useful/interesting/valuable but is usually just a lot of junk that you have to dispose of!
Keep us up to date with progress?
J3JCV said:
I bought a Westerly Conway, last of the Laurent Giles Westerly models. 36' but still bilge keels.
issues you have with bigger boats are things like having 10 seacocks to service /change... I'm a huge fan of Trudesign, I fitted some 10 years ago to a boat and they are still 100% fine now, maintenance free!
Have fun with the 22, such a fantastic boat as its 100% a large yacht shrunk to a manageable size.
Conway is a fantastic boat!!issues you have with bigger boats are things like having 10 seacocks to service /change... I'm a huge fan of Trudesign, I fitted some 10 years ago to a boat and they are still 100% fine now, maintenance free!
Have fun with the 22, such a fantastic boat as its 100% a large yacht shrunk to a manageable size.
Good to hear the positives about trudesign, if I put any new seacocks or skin fittings in that’s definitely the way I’ll go.
And you’re right about the h22, they just feel right. Nice and deep, incredibly heavily ballasted.
We spent last Saturday at the boat, stayed over and had an hour or so Sunday morning before we had to be home for the kids. What became clear is how much I have under estimated how long everything is going to take!
I looked at dropping the rudder - got stumped as I simply couldn't get it the pintle out of the gudgeon...
Rather than waste time I decided to research later and crack on with sanding the bottom.... hard, relentless graft!
I got her rubbed down enough below the waterline I reckon, revealing more osmosis than I'd like but still not to concerned and it's a job for the six months out of the water next winter. Also managed to have a first pass down the port topside.
Meanwhile, my partner cracked on inside painting lockers and bilges. Obviously they look a million times better now, but sleeping onboard was aromatic! Luckily after working until it was dark and then sinking a few pints we slept well.
I had Monday booked off work, so headed back up with a plan to properly tackle the rudder this time. The whole point of dropping the rudder is to replace the galvanised rudder tube which passes through the void at the back of the cockpit and typically rots just above where it meets the hull, so instead of wasting time unnecessarily I started by properly checking it's condition.
Many owners have successfully cut out and replaced the tube utilising the crawl space beneath the cockpit. But I didn't think it a particularly great idea to work with a grinder under there and more to the point I'm not sure I would fit anyway - so instead I put my big boy pants on and started cutting a hole at the rear of my cockpit....
No going back now!
And the tube in question, no doubt it needs replacing.
Equipped with the freshly researched knowledge that it was likely someone had glassed over a pair of bolts for the gudgeon on my skeg, I tentatively took to it with my grinder.
Bolts located they came undo surprisingly easy and I soon had the rudder down, confirming I would need to dig a hole to release it fully.
At this point the weather was coming in just as forecast so the priority was getting the hatch in place to make good the hole in my cockpit sole.
With all my 18V batteries dead, my hands aching and the wind howling I called it a day - cutting out the tube is a job for next time.
I have tomorrow (Friday) off so will spend a long weekend up there, I also have the benefit of my brother helping out Saturday and Sunday, but even then there's a lot still to do and taking into account times between planned coats of paint I have accepted we won't be in the water this month and have revised our deadline to the end of April. Most importantly this is supposed to be enjoyable, so no need for too much pressure.
Costs incurred so far are stacking up too, but as proposed I will be open and honest as to what this 'cheap' boat ends up costing. I have had a quick reckon up and I think we are looking as follows;
Costs particular to the boat;
- Purchase prices (incl. dinghy and outboards) - £1400
- Storage at Amble Marina (1month) - £160
- Cockpit hatch - £25
- Paint
- International One Up Undercoat/Primer - £55
- International Toplac Plus (x3) - £75
- International Interdeck (x2) - £50
- Hempel Bilge paint - £21
- Hempel Underwater Primer - £46
- Hempel Antifouling - £39
- Replacement sink seacock (decided to keep it after all) - £70 (including marine ply backer)
- Halyards, 21m x4 - 8mm, Roller line, 18m - 6mm - £150
- Boat hook - £20
- Flag pole - £31
- Replacement of rudder tube (316 Stainless tube, washers, nuts and bushes) - £100
- GRP Repair materials/gel coat filler - £50
- New curtain material - £20
- Sundries; sandpaper, small tools, nuts, bolts, screws, glue etc... - £200
Running Total - £2493
I'm happy with that, hopefully not too many huge costs to come - I'll have another month at £160, a launch at £150 and my summer mooring will be around £150. I think once finished the boat will be worth what we've put into her all day long.
Other costs to get on the water at the moment...
- Yacht club membership - £250
- Life jackets for the family (auto harness crewsavers with lights) - £375
- Sailing suit for me - £130
- Sailing kit for kids - £200
- Sailing jacket for mrs (she has also inherited a decent suit which came with the boat) - £100
I looked at dropping the rudder - got stumped as I simply couldn't get it the pintle out of the gudgeon...
Rather than waste time I decided to research later and crack on with sanding the bottom.... hard, relentless graft!
I got her rubbed down enough below the waterline I reckon, revealing more osmosis than I'd like but still not to concerned and it's a job for the six months out of the water next winter. Also managed to have a first pass down the port topside.
Meanwhile, my partner cracked on inside painting lockers and bilges. Obviously they look a million times better now, but sleeping onboard was aromatic! Luckily after working until it was dark and then sinking a few pints we slept well.
I had Monday booked off work, so headed back up with a plan to properly tackle the rudder this time. The whole point of dropping the rudder is to replace the galvanised rudder tube which passes through the void at the back of the cockpit and typically rots just above where it meets the hull, so instead of wasting time unnecessarily I started by properly checking it's condition.
Many owners have successfully cut out and replaced the tube utilising the crawl space beneath the cockpit. But I didn't think it a particularly great idea to work with a grinder under there and more to the point I'm not sure I would fit anyway - so instead I put my big boy pants on and started cutting a hole at the rear of my cockpit....
No going back now!
And the tube in question, no doubt it needs replacing.
Equipped with the freshly researched knowledge that it was likely someone had glassed over a pair of bolts for the gudgeon on my skeg, I tentatively took to it with my grinder.
Bolts located they came undo surprisingly easy and I soon had the rudder down, confirming I would need to dig a hole to release it fully.
At this point the weather was coming in just as forecast so the priority was getting the hatch in place to make good the hole in my cockpit sole.
With all my 18V batteries dead, my hands aching and the wind howling I called it a day - cutting out the tube is a job for next time.
I have tomorrow (Friday) off so will spend a long weekend up there, I also have the benefit of my brother helping out Saturday and Sunday, but even then there's a lot still to do and taking into account times between planned coats of paint I have accepted we won't be in the water this month and have revised our deadline to the end of April. Most importantly this is supposed to be enjoyable, so no need for too much pressure.
Costs incurred so far are stacking up too, but as proposed I will be open and honest as to what this 'cheap' boat ends up costing. I have had a quick reckon up and I think we are looking as follows;
Costs particular to the boat;
- Purchase prices (incl. dinghy and outboards) - £1400
- Storage at Amble Marina (1month) - £160
- Cockpit hatch - £25
- Paint
- International One Up Undercoat/Primer - £55
- International Toplac Plus (x3) - £75
- International Interdeck (x2) - £50
- Hempel Bilge paint - £21
- Hempel Underwater Primer - £46
- Hempel Antifouling - £39
- Replacement sink seacock (decided to keep it after all) - £70 (including marine ply backer)
- Halyards, 21m x4 - 8mm, Roller line, 18m - 6mm - £150
- Boat hook - £20
- Flag pole - £31
- Replacement of rudder tube (316 Stainless tube, washers, nuts and bushes) - £100
- GRP Repair materials/gel coat filler - £50
- New curtain material - £20
- Sundries; sandpaper, small tools, nuts, bolts, screws, glue etc... - £200
Running Total - £2493
I'm happy with that, hopefully not too many huge costs to come - I'll have another month at £160, a launch at £150 and my summer mooring will be around £150. I think once finished the boat will be worth what we've put into her all day long.
Other costs to get on the water at the moment...
- Yacht club membership - £250
- Life jackets for the family (auto harness crewsavers with lights) - £375
- Sailing suit for me - £130
- Sailing kit for kids - £200
- Sailing jacket for mrs (she has also inherited a decent suit which came with the boat) - £100
Edited by D1bram on Thursday 17th March 13:04
Edited by D1bram on Thursday 17th March 13:05
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