How low can BBMF fly?
Discussion
About 11 this morning the BBMF Lancaster fly over my house. Bloody glorious it was (and loud). Shame I didn't have camera on me.
It was surprisingly low, guess would be a few hundred feet.
I'm between Stevenage & Welwyn Garden City, can't see there was anywhere it was displaying.
I thought aircraft we're meant to have minimum altitude of 1500 ft over built up areas ?
It was surprisingly low, guess would be a few hundred feet.
I'm between Stevenage & Welwyn Garden City, can't see there was anywhere it was displaying.
I thought aircraft we're meant to have minimum altitude of 1500 ft over built up areas ?
Wingspan of a Lanc is just over a hundred feet, could its height be measured in a few wingspans?
Had a neighbour snap a Chinook he claimed was at under 100 feet, a bit of comparing of the fusegage length with the height on his photo put it closer to 350ft. Tempting to always think low flying aircraft (especially large ones) are lower than they are.
Had a neighbour snap a Chinook he claimed was at under 100 feet, a bit of comparing of the fusegage length with the height on his photo put it closer to 350ft. Tempting to always think low flying aircraft (especially large ones) are lower than they are.
Lanc came over us at 500ft this morning 
Wish they’d tell me first, four Merlins soon gets me outside but no chance of grabbing the camera when it’s that low !
I’d assume they’ll comply to the civil rules (500ft from people/structures unless landing/taking off) but as military aircraft they don’t have to.
Wish they’d tell me first, four Merlins soon gets me outside but no chance of grabbing the camera when it’s that low !
I’d assume they’ll comply to the civil rules (500ft from people/structures unless landing/taking off) but as military aircraft they don’t have to.
Edited by essayer on Sunday 22 May 12:46
Some years back BBMF Lanc flew directly over our then house on final approach to a local fete that was about half a mile away. Knew they were due but not that they would pass directly overhead as they did. Think it was a freebie arranged as en route between displays.
They did a flypast and then a circuit passing overhead a second time. They were *low* on the second pass, it felt like rooftop but that was a bit subjective, only a few hundred feet, below 500? You could certainly see surprising amount of detail on the fuselage, undercarriage etc. Loud does not begin to do it justice.
They did a flypast and then a circuit passing overhead a second time. They were *low* on the second pass, it felt like rooftop but that was a bit subjective, only a few hundred feet, below 500? You could certainly see surprising amount of detail on the fuselage, undercarriage etc. Loud does not begin to do it justice.
Pinkie15 said:
Well 4-500 ft probably; was trying to imagine it's wing span then 'built up' to it's altitude. Dam difficult to do.
I always thought minimum height was 1500 ft, seems I was wrong then if 500 is minimum.
Civilian rules (no doubt oversimplifying here) are 1500ft over a built up area, otherwise 500ft from any person vessel vehicle or structure. So no minimum height as such.I always thought minimum height was 1500 ft, seems I was wrong then if 500 is minimum.
Military rules are of course something else again, I think normally 500ft or occasionally 100ft, and BBMF no doubt have a few extra rules of their own.
Here it is going near my house a couple of years ago.
https://youtu.be/KSAbWBoNp_U
https://youtu.be/zFGuHUddd90
It did seem to be a bit lower when it first flew over but but went higher to turn.
https://youtu.be/KSAbWBoNp_U
https://youtu.be/zFGuHUddd90
It did seem to be a bit lower when it first flew over but but went higher to turn.
DavieBNL said:
Had a neighbour snap a Chinook he claimed was at under 100 feet...
Pah! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcE37uJ22I0Simpo Two said:
DavieBNL said:
Had a neighbour snap a Chinook he claimed was at under 100 feet...
Pah! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcE37uJ22I0Simpo Two said:
Nice. So using my method I reckon he (AL1 he/she) is at about 35 - 40 feet?Low flying minimums from regulatory article 2330 (amended slightly for clarity on here) from the military aviation authority state:
Minimum heights for Low Flying, which should not be below:
(1) Fixed Wing. 250 ft AGL / MSD unless authorized to conduct Operational Low Flying Training (OLFT);
(2) Rotary Wing. 100 ft AGL unless a lower minima is approved by duty authoriser
Low Flying over Congested Areas and Public Assemblies. Air System flying over Congested Areas of cities, towns and settlements should be flown at an altitude sufficient, in the event of a power unit failure, to permit a safe emergency landing or safe abandonment outside the Congested Area.
I always find people struggle with measuring height. If you open Flightradar24 look up at a plane guess it’s height and then check I often find it will be double what you thought.
Minimum heights for Low Flying, which should not be below:
(1) Fixed Wing. 250 ft AGL / MSD unless authorized to conduct Operational Low Flying Training (OLFT);
(2) Rotary Wing. 100 ft AGL unless a lower minima is approved by duty authoriser
Low Flying over Congested Areas and Public Assemblies. Air System flying over Congested Areas of cities, towns and settlements should be flown at an altitude sufficient, in the event of a power unit failure, to permit a safe emergency landing or safe abandonment outside the Congested Area.
I always find people struggle with measuring height. If you open Flightradar24 look up at a plane guess it’s height and then check I often find it will be double what you thought.
normalbloke said:
Simpo Two said:
DavieBNL said:
Had a neighbour snap a Chinook he claimed was at under 100 feet...
Pah! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcE37uJ22I0What's alarming is the sort of high speed low flying that causes jets to get tangled in mountain cable cars. Or dual carriageways.
The Cavalese cable car crash occurred on February 3, 1998, near a ski resort in Italy. Twenty people were killed when a United States Marine Corps EA-6B Prowler aircraft, flying too low and against regulations in order for the pilots to "have fun" and "take videos of the scenery", cut a cable supporting a cable car of an aerial lift. The pilot, Captain Richard J. Ashby, and his navigator, Captain Joseph Schweitzer, were put on trial in the United States and found not guilty of involuntary manslaughter and negligent homicide.
On 22 August 2015, during an aerial display at the Shoreham Airshow, a Hawker Hunter T7 failed to complete a loop manoeuvre and crashed, hitting vehicles on the A27 road adjacent to the airport. The pilot, Andy Hill, was critically injured but survived. As a result of the accident, all civilian-registered Hawker Hunter aircraft in the United Kingdom were grounded, and restrictions were put in place on civilian vintage jet aircraft displays over land, limiting them to high-level flypasts and banning aerobatic manoeuvres. Hill was charged with eleven counts of manslaughter by gross negligence and one count of endangering an aircraft. He was found not guilty on all counts on 8 March 2019.
The Cavalese cable car crash occurred on February 3, 1998, near a ski resort in Italy. Twenty people were killed when a United States Marine Corps EA-6B Prowler aircraft, flying too low and against regulations in order for the pilots to "have fun" and "take videos of the scenery", cut a cable supporting a cable car of an aerial lift. The pilot, Captain Richard J. Ashby, and his navigator, Captain Joseph Schweitzer, were put on trial in the United States and found not guilty of involuntary manslaughter and negligent homicide.
On 22 August 2015, during an aerial display at the Shoreham Airshow, a Hawker Hunter T7 failed to complete a loop manoeuvre and crashed, hitting vehicles on the A27 road adjacent to the airport. The pilot, Andy Hill, was critically injured but survived. As a result of the accident, all civilian-registered Hawker Hunter aircraft in the United Kingdom were grounded, and restrictions were put in place on civilian vintage jet aircraft displays over land, limiting them to high-level flypasts and banning aerobatic manoeuvres. Hill was charged with eleven counts of manslaughter by gross negligence and one count of endangering an aircraft. He was found not guilty on all counts on 8 March 2019.
ecsrobin said:
Low flying minimums from regulatory article 2330 (amended slightly for clarity on here) from the military aviation authority state:
Minimum heights for Low Flying, which should not be below:
(1) Fixed Wing. 250 ft AGL / MSD unless authorized to conduct Operational Low Flying Training (OLFT);
(2) Rotary Wing. 100 ft AGL unless a lower minima is approved by duty authoriser
Low Flying over Congested Areas and Public Assemblies. Air System flying over Congested Areas of cities, towns and settlements should be flown at an altitude sufficient, in the event of a power unit failure, to permit a safe emergency landing or safe abandonment outside the Congested Area.
I always find people struggle with measuring height. If you open Flightradar24 look up at a plane guess it’s height and then check I often find it will be double what you thought.
Re the 100ft rotary wing, we were on our bottom field which is mostly a rough grass flood plain when the Severn is really high, sort of height when Bewdley is actually flooded. Anyway we could hear a chopper getting louder, to the point the volume got excessive and the dog was starting to freak out and cowering in the long grass.Minimum heights for Low Flying, which should not be below:
(1) Fixed Wing. 250 ft AGL / MSD unless authorized to conduct Operational Low Flying Training (OLFT);
(2) Rotary Wing. 100 ft AGL unless a lower minima is approved by duty authoriser
Low Flying over Congested Areas and Public Assemblies. Air System flying over Congested Areas of cities, towns and settlements should be flown at an altitude sufficient, in the event of a power unit failure, to permit a safe emergency landing or safe abandonment outside the Congested Area.
I always find people struggle with measuring height. If you open Flightradar24 look up at a plane guess it’s height and then check I often find it will be double what you thought.
Turned out to be a US Army Apache coming up river at below treetop height, definitely below 100ft. As it came out of the tree 'cover' the crew looked across at us on the bank about 50m away roughly at same height as them.
Judging by the action clearly an "Oh f
k" moment by the crew, they gained some height and pissed off upriver sharpish. What to do? Report it? Realistically they have to train, so no.FiF said:
Re the 100ft rotary wing, we were on our bottom field which is mostly a rough grass flood plain when the Severn is really high, sort of height when Bewdley is actually flooded. Anyway we could hear a chopper getting louder, to the point the volume got excessive and the dog was starting to freak out and cowering in the long grass.
Turned out to be a US Army Apache coming up river at below treetop height, definitely below 100ft. As it came out of the tree 'cover' the crew looked across at us on the bank about 50m away roughly at same height as them.
Judging by the action clearly an "Oh fk" moment by the crew, they gained some height and pissed off upriver sharpish. What to do? Report it? Realistically they have to train, so no.
As per my original post rotary can be cleared to below 100ft, from memory the joint helicopter command flying order book has a blanket dispensation to 50ft with additional authorisation to ground level. Turned out to be a US Army Apache coming up river at below treetop height, definitely below 100ft. As it came out of the tree 'cover' the crew looked across at us on the bank about 50m away roughly at same height as them.
Judging by the action clearly an "Oh f
k" moment by the crew, they gained some height and pissed off upriver sharpish. What to do? Report it? Realistically they have to train, so no.I have been a passenger along the Colorado river outrunning boats it’s good fun
I can’t be bothered to upload the video as it will blow everyone’s speakers with the sounds of the engines but here’s a photo from a 50ft trip.
Regarding reporting if you believe it’s unsafe or it’s annoying you can report a low flying complaint. It will be investigated by the RAF police who will contact the stations involved with that aircraft type, it can then be quickly narrowed down and checked against programming of sortie times and then checked against radar plots.
I have previously provided sortie data for someone who broke their arm falling from scaffolding after a low flying aircraft past over. From the radar plot it was about a mile away and after the time of incident and I’m guessing the injured party had seen it and thought I can make some money.
Edited by ecsrobin on Sunday 22 May 16:22
DavieBNL said:
normalbloke said:
Simpo Two said:
DavieBNL said:
Had a neighbour snap a Chinook he claimed was at under 100 feet...
Pah! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcE37uJ22I0normalbloke said:
There was the well publicised Chinook incident in Lincolnshire that ended up with the death of a horse rider, as the aircraft allegedly passed over them at 30 feet.
The military has spent a lot of time and money with horse riding communities for many years educating them on the need to wear a hi-viz to aid identification. Most horse riders wear dark clothing and when against a tree line are impossible to see until it’s to late at that point turning would create more noise so the safest option is to continue straight. Of course they could be the opposite side of a tree line and not be noticed at all but that is an accident and thankfully a very rare occurrence. Panamax said:
What's alarming is the sort of high speed low flying that causes jets to get tangled in mountain cable cars. Or dual carriageways.
The Cavalese cable car crash occurred on February 3, 1998, near a ski resort in Italy. Twenty people were killed when a United States Marine Corps EA-6B Prowler aircraft, flying too low and against regulations in order for the pilots to "have fun" and "take videos of the scenery", cut a cable supporting a cable car of an aerial lift. The pilot, Captain Richard J. Ashby, and his navigator, Captain Joseph Schweitzer, were put on trial in the United States and found not guilty of involuntary manslaughter and negligent homicide.
On 22 August 2015, during an aerial display at the Shoreham Airshow, a Hawker Hunter T7 failed to complete a loop manoeuvre and crashed, hitting vehicles on the A27 road adjacent to the airport. The pilot, Andy Hill, was critically injured but survived. As a result of the accident, all civilian-registered Hawker Hunter aircraft in the United Kingdom were grounded, and restrictions were put in place on civilian vintage jet aircraft displays over land, limiting them to high-level flypasts and banning aerobatic manoeuvres. Hill was charged with eleven counts of manslaughter by gross negligence and one count of endangering an aircraft. He was found not guilty on all counts on 8 March 2019.
The shoreham crash has no relevance here. The Cavalese cable car crash occurred on February 3, 1998, near a ski resort in Italy. Twenty people were killed when a United States Marine Corps EA-6B Prowler aircraft, flying too low and against regulations in order for the pilots to "have fun" and "take videos of the scenery", cut a cable supporting a cable car of an aerial lift. The pilot, Captain Richard J. Ashby, and his navigator, Captain Joseph Schweitzer, were put on trial in the United States and found not guilty of involuntary manslaughter and negligent homicide.
On 22 August 2015, during an aerial display at the Shoreham Airshow, a Hawker Hunter T7 failed to complete a loop manoeuvre and crashed, hitting vehicles on the A27 road adjacent to the airport. The pilot, Andy Hill, was critically injured but survived. As a result of the accident, all civilian-registered Hawker Hunter aircraft in the United Kingdom were grounded, and restrictions were put in place on civilian vintage jet aircraft displays over land, limiting them to high-level flypasts and banning aerobatic manoeuvres. Hill was charged with eleven counts of manslaughter by gross negligence and one count of endangering an aircraft. He was found not guilty on all counts on 8 March 2019.
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