Wasn't the Hindenburg crash really weird

Wasn't the Hindenburg crash really weird

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Hammersia

Original Poster:

1,497 posts

14 months

Sunday 12th March 2023
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Don't think there's been an in depth PH discussion for a while about it, just that after all this time, numerous investigations, quite a bit of actual footage, lots of credible eyewitnesses...

And there's still umpteen theories about what actually happened and no concensus. Including some intriguing sabotage claims. Wiki article is far too long to provide excerpts.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenburg_disaste...

It had made 17 successful transatlantic trips, operationally it seems super impressive to be doing practical intercontinental travel with a decent payload in 1937.

Is it an even stranger aviation mystery then MH370?

Edited by Hammersia on Sunday 12th March 20:47

2xChevrons

3,159 posts

79 months

Sunday 12th March 2023
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I don't think it's quite as mysterious or disputed as you are making out. There are various theories out there, but most of them are not really credible.

The theory at the time - that it was an act of sabotage - was mostly a product of German politics and various tensions between the Zeppelin company, DZR and the Nazi Party. There is no real evidence for it.

The weight of evidence and expert and technical opinion comes down on the side of it being caused by build-up and discharge of static electricity which touched off hydrogen lingering from recent venting to correct the zeppelin's trim. To that can be added contributory factors, like the possibility that the structure was over-stressed by unsafe operating practices since the formation of DZR and sharp maneuvers in the immediate approach to the final landing which led to a gasbag puncture - this was the theory favored by the man who ran the Zeppelin company. See also: incendiary paint which let the fire spread so quickly.

dvs_dave

8,581 posts

224 months

Sunday 12th March 2023
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Oh, the humanity!

Punctilio

827 posts

22 months

Sunday 12th March 2023
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It was full of hydrogen, which is somewhat burny in nature.


It was designed to be used with helium but the yanks refused to sell the Germans any, so it's really
the Daily Mail's fault.

Simpo Two

85,147 posts

264 months

Sunday 12th March 2023
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It's a bit like 'Secrets of Stonehenge' - everything is known, it just makes 'woo' television for the hard of remembering.

Electricity + hydrogen = bang. Not weird at all. But think up a Nazi conspiracy plot and you've got a TV programme...

ChocolateFrog

24,847 posts

172 months

Sunday 12th March 2023
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A 4 year old could tell you what would happen to a big bag of hydrogen if you give it long enough.

Which most of the time isn't very long.

Hammersia

Original Poster:

1,497 posts

14 months

Sunday 12th March 2023
quotequote all
2xChevrons said:
I don't think it's quite as mysterious or disputed as you are making out. There are various theories out there, but most of them are not really credible.

The theory at the time - that it was an act of sabotage - was mostly a product of German politics and various tensions between the Zeppelin company, DZR and the Nazi Party. There is no real evidence for it.

The weight of evidence and expert and technical opinion comes down on the side of it being caused by build-up and discharge of static electricity which touched off hydrogen lingering from recent venting to correct the zeppelin's trim. To that can be added contributory factors, like the possibility that the structure was over-stressed by unsafe operating practices since the formation of DZR and sharp maneuvers in the immediate approach to the final landing which led to a gasbag puncture - this was the theory favored by the man who ran the Zeppelin company. See also: incendiary paint which let the fire spread so quickly.
Was gasbag venting of hydrogen a thing though? The airship was being trimmed by dumping of water ballast (lighter) right upto the crash, so why hydrogen vent to make it heavier at nearly the same time?

peterperkins

3,147 posts

241 months

Monday 13th March 2023
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Some Hydrogen got out or was released, it mixed with the air and then there was a spark. The end..
Had it been filled with Helium it would have had a bit less lifting power but might lasted a lot longer.

hidetheelephants

23,731 posts

192 months

Monday 13th March 2023
quotequote all
Punctilio said:
It was full of hydrogen, which is somewhat burny in nature.


It was designed to be used with helium but the yanks refused to sell the Germans any, so it's really
the Daily Mail's fault.
There's also the aluminium paint applied to the gas bags and the envelope being 2nd cousin to thermite. burny stuff in a leaky bag made of other burny stuff with an array of ignition sources. IIRC the US wouldn't sell any to anyone, they kept it all for their own blimps.

Tango13

8,395 posts

175 months

Monday 13th March 2023
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I think it was CH4 who broadcast a sensible documentary on the Hindenburg many years back. They managed to acquire some fabric identical to that used back in the day and tested it to see how it responded to static electricity etc

It responded very well if you were looking for a fire, cotton painted with cellulose dope covered in aluminium paint and almost unlimited hydrogen on tap is only going one way

If you can find a copy of James Gilberts book 'The World's Worst Aircraft' he talks about the failing of the R100 & R101

Hammersia

Original Poster:

1,497 posts

14 months

Monday 13th March 2023
quotequote all
ChocolateFrog said:
A 4 year old could tell you what would happen to a big bag of hydrogen if you give it long enough.

Which most of the time isn't very long.
And yet, as I say, it did a lot more miles (17 transatlantic round trips) than recent helium ships like the Bedford Airlander etc.

It seemed like a pretty smart bit of engineering for 1936:




TGCOTF-dewey

5,069 posts

54 months

Monday 13th March 2023
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It's a real shame airships pretty much died after the many hydrogen filled ones went bang.

Noting the recent dwindling He supplies, they really could have been a much greener way of inter-continental travel.

I'd gladly take some trips slower and in more comfort than trapped in a tiny seat with zero legroom but faster.

Dog Star

16,078 posts

167 months

Monday 13th March 2023
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This all day long.

What a way to travel that must have been. Just imagine floating along enjoying a fine cocktail while watching the world go by through one of those panoramic windows.

Modern air travel for plebs like me who only know - and will only ever know - the joys of economy is probably the worst and most degrading form of transport ever conceived. Hateful. I can imagine it’s the diametric opposite of airship travel.

There’s a good FB group - Airship Heritage Trust - on FB and they post up quite a few old photos of these early blimps and dirigibles.

ZedLeg

12,278 posts

107 months

Monday 13th March 2023
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TGCOTF-dewey said:
It's a real shame airships pretty much died after the many hydrogen filled ones went bang.

Noting the recent dwindling He supplies, they really could have been a much greener way of inter-continental travel.

I'd gladly take some trips slower and in more comfort than trapped in a tiny seat with zero legroom but faster.
Not really, we're running out of helium too and I can't see pure hydrogen filled airships ever making a comeback.

LotusOmega375D

7,580 posts

152 months

Monday 13th March 2023
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You can pay airlines more for Business and First Class seating though and still get to your destination much quicker than an airship.

Hammersia

Original Poster:

1,497 posts

14 months

Monday 13th March 2023
quotequote all
LotusOmega375D said:
You can pay airlines more for Business and First Class seating though and still get to your destination much quicker than an airship.
But no kitchen, no bar, no piano, no lounge... not really comparable.

Simpo Two

85,147 posts

264 months

Monday 13th March 2023
quotequote all
Hammersia said:
Was gasbag venting of hydrogen a thing though? The airship was being trimmed by dumping of water ballast (lighter) right upto the crash, so why hydrogen vent to make it heavier at nearly the same time?
Beacause it was tilting. See the Landing Timeline at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenburg_disaster

Hammersia said:
And yet, as I say, it did a lot more miles (17 transatlantic round trips) than recent helium ships like the Bedford Airlander etc.
The inference seems to be 'It did 17 trips before the accident so it can't have been an accident'. If that was true then any vehicle completing 17+ trips would be immune from accident...

Simpo Two

85,147 posts

264 months

Monday 13th March 2023
quotequote all
Hammersia said:
LotusOmega375D said:
You can pay airlines more for Business and First Class seating though and still get to your destination much quicker than an airship.
But no kitchen, no bar, no piano, no lounge... not really comparable.
Ah well you have ocean liners for that. Well you did, before jet airliners rendered them obsolete, and then cruise ships took over. At the same time as the big airships there were the big flying boats like the Empire and PanAm Clipper. But very expensive, for the wealthy only - and again superseded by jets with much more speed and range.

ZedLeg

12,278 posts

107 months

Monday 13th March 2023
quotequote all
Hammersia said:
LotusOmega375D said:
You can pay airlines more for Business and First Class seating though and still get to your destination much quicker than an airship.
But no kitchen, no bar, no piano, no lounge... not really comparable.
It doesn't need any of that stuff because the flight only takes a few hours. I don't know about others but I'd rather be in a nice bar at my destination than being stuck in a little box for a day or two.

TGCOTF-dewey

5,069 posts

54 months

Monday 13th March 2023
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ZedLeg said:
TGCOTF-dewey said:
It's a real shame airships pretty much died after the many hydrogen filled ones went bang.

Noting the recent dwindling He supplies, they really could have been a much greener way of inter-continental travel.

I'd gladly take some trips slower and in more comfort than trapped in a tiny seat with zero legroom but faster.
Not really, we're running out of helium too and I can't see pure hydrogen filled airships ever making a comeback.
That's literally what I just said.

But in the 30s and 40s supply issues weren't such an issue or known about.