Post amazingly cool pictures of aircraft (Volume 2)
Discussion
DiscoColin said:
It was certainly considered if you read up on the history of the programme, and with the benefit of hindsight that would probably have been more likely to succeed than what they actually did. With the benefit of non-bespoke standardised airframes, many of the development problems wouldn't have been there and the critical issue of ongoing maintainability would have been significantly reduced. However - given the small number of airframes and the relative unlikelihood of exports it is still unlikely that completely new airframes (as opposed to new wings, floor, engines, undercarriage, avionics and redesign/reengineering of everything else) would have ultimately made any financial sense either.
The concise answer I suppose is that if they had got to where they did with standardised new build airframes then it wouldn't have been quite the no-brainer decision to chop them up and discard, but there is no guarantee that they would have got to that point nor that it would have been more cost effective.
Or in other words - almost certainly no, which is a shame as conceptually it would have been far more capable than any other options out there.
So just new bodies missing then really...The concise answer I suppose is that if they had got to where they did with standardised new build airframes then it wouldn't have been quite the no-brainer decision to chop them up and discard, but there is no guarantee that they would have got to that point nor that it would have been more cost effective.
Or in other words - almost certainly no, which is a shame as conceptually it would have been far more capable than any other options out there.
One of the major problems with Nimrod was lack of fuselage volume vs the cooling requirements for the onboard kit.
This is (one of the reasons) why AEW3 failed (it used the fuel to cool on board systems) and why MR2 was fitted with the SCP in the tail (Supplementary Cooling Pack) which directly led to the loss of XV230 and the death of a very good friend.
At the time (early / mid '90s) the airframe of choice was probably the P7 (upgraded Orion). Unfortunately the USN pulled out of that programme.
This is (one of the reasons) why AEW3 failed (it used the fuel to cool on board systems) and why MR2 was fitted with the SCP in the tail (Supplementary Cooling Pack) which directly led to the loss of XV230 and the death of a very good friend.
At the time (early / mid '90s) the airframe of choice was probably the P7 (upgraded Orion). Unfortunately the USN pulled out of that programme.
Edited by Ginetta G15 Girl on Wednesday 15th November 21:20
MartG said:
X-29
Had to highlight this one ^^^ I fell out with a mate when I was about ten over that plane. When I say fell out we were mates again after five minutes of calling each other poopy head.
I had that plane (well two actually) as a model in the form of micro machines (anyone remember them??) and I didn’t believe it was real because the wings were on the backwards and it couldn’t possibly fly.
Guess I owe him an apology.
Top thread
hondafanatic said:
Had no idea this thread existed and I’ve been working my way through it for the last hour or so.
Had to highlight this one ^^^ I fell out with a mate when I was about ten over that plane. When I say fell out we were mates again after five minutes of calling each other poopy head.
I had that plane (well two actually) as a model in the form of micro machines (anyone remember them??) and I didn’t believe it was real because the wings were on the backwards and it couldn’t possibly fly.
Guess I owe him an apology.
Top thread
I remember those. They had a most amusing name. Had to highlight this one ^^^ I fell out with a mate when I was about ten over that plane. When I say fell out we were mates again after five minutes of calling each other poopy head.
I had that plane (well two actually) as a model in the form of micro machines (anyone remember them??) and I didn’t believe it was real because the wings were on the backwards and it couldn’t possibly fly.
Guess I owe him an apology.
Top thread
Sukhoi also experimented with the Su-47 Berkut
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-47
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-47
AlexC1981 said:
I remember those. They had a most amusing name.
That needs to go in the "Juvenile Things That Make You snigger" thread A German twin-engine photo-reconnaissance aircraft with pressurized cabin used to visit regularly from Crete to overfly Tobruk and Cairo. Our Spitfires couldn’t reach the plane at 42,000 ft.
Back at HQ in the Abukier Caves, they decided that they could do something about this. They selected two Mk. 5 Spitfires and modified them.
First step was to remove all the paint from the surface and polish the skin. Then they removed all the armor plate and all other possible weight. The engines were up-rated by increasing the boost pressure from 12 to 16 psi. New wing-tips were fitted giving them about 3 ft. 6 inches more length. One had its cannons and mounts removed, leaving only one machine gun in each wing with 50 rounds of ammunition.
They removed its radio and aircraft-battery and installed two smaller motorcycle batteries to provide power for the gun-sight. The canopy was taken off and the aircraft was always flown with open cockpit. The other aircraft did carry radio and had its cannons installed with a limited amount of ammunition.
The method of operation was that they flew together with the radioed aircraft being vectored to the target with the other one following. When they got close to the target plane, the lighter plane succeeded in getting above the German plane and put a few bullets through the pressurized cabin so that the crew was forced to descend, whereupon the other plane with the cannons finished the job. These aircraft were operated from our squadron at El Adem.
An additional measure to reduce weight in the lighter aircraft was that they found an Australian pilot who had been a jockey!
Back at HQ in the Abukier Caves, they decided that they could do something about this. They selected two Mk. 5 Spitfires and modified them.
First step was to remove all the paint from the surface and polish the skin. Then they removed all the armor plate and all other possible weight. The engines were up-rated by increasing the boost pressure from 12 to 16 psi. New wing-tips were fitted giving them about 3 ft. 6 inches more length. One had its cannons and mounts removed, leaving only one machine gun in each wing with 50 rounds of ammunition.
They removed its radio and aircraft-battery and installed two smaller motorcycle batteries to provide power for the gun-sight. The canopy was taken off and the aircraft was always flown with open cockpit. The other aircraft did carry radio and had its cannons installed with a limited amount of ammunition.
The method of operation was that they flew together with the radioed aircraft being vectored to the target with the other one following. When they got close to the target plane, the lighter plane succeeded in getting above the German plane and put a few bullets through the pressurized cabin so that the crew was forced to descend, whereupon the other plane with the cannons finished the job. These aircraft were operated from our squadron at El Adem.
An additional measure to reduce weight in the lighter aircraft was that they found an Australian pilot who had been a jockey!
MartG said:
A German twin-engine photo-reconnaissance aircraft with pressurized cabin used to visit regularly from Crete to overfly Tobruk and Cairo. Our Spitfires couldn’t reach the plane at 42,000 ft.
Back at HQ in the Abukier Caves, they decided that they could do something about this. They selected two Mk. 5 Spitfires and modified them.
First step was to remove all the paint from the surface and polish the skin. Then they removed all the armor plate and all other possible weight. The engines were up-rated by increasing the boost pressure from 12 to 16 psi. New wing-tips were fitted giving them about 3 ft. 6 inches more length. One had its cannons and mounts removed, leaving only one machine gun in each wing with 50 rounds of ammunition.
They removed its radio and aircraft-battery and installed two smaller motorcycle batteries to provide power for the gun-sight. The canopy was taken off and the aircraft was always flown with open cockpit. The other aircraft did carry radio and had its cannons installed with a limited amount of ammunition.
The method of operation was that they flew together with the radioed aircraft being vectored to the target with the other one following. When they got close to the target plane, the lighter plane succeeded in getting above the German plane and put a few bullets through the pressurized cabin so that the crew was forced to descend, whereupon the other plane with the cannons finished the job. These aircraft were operated from our squadron at El Adem.
An additional measure to reduce weight in the lighter aircraft was that they found an Australian pilot who had been a jockey!
Out of interest, what was the German plane?Back at HQ in the Abukier Caves, they decided that they could do something about this. They selected two Mk. 5 Spitfires and modified them.
First step was to remove all the paint from the surface and polish the skin. Then they removed all the armor plate and all other possible weight. The engines were up-rated by increasing the boost pressure from 12 to 16 psi. New wing-tips were fitted giving them about 3 ft. 6 inches more length. One had its cannons and mounts removed, leaving only one machine gun in each wing with 50 rounds of ammunition.
They removed its radio and aircraft-battery and installed two smaller motorcycle batteries to provide power for the gun-sight. The canopy was taken off and the aircraft was always flown with open cockpit. The other aircraft did carry radio and had its cannons installed with a limited amount of ammunition.
The method of operation was that they flew together with the radioed aircraft being vectored to the target with the other one following. When they got close to the target plane, the lighter plane succeeded in getting above the German plane and put a few bullets through the pressurized cabin so that the crew was forced to descend, whereupon the other plane with the cannons finished the job. These aircraft were operated from our squadron at El Adem.
An additional measure to reduce weight in the lighter aircraft was that they found an Australian pilot who had been a jockey!
Europa1 said:
MartG said:
A German twin-engine photo-reconnaissance aircraft with pressurized cabin used to visit regularly from Crete to overfly Tobruk and Cairo. Our Spitfires couldn’t reach the plane at 42,000 ft.
Back at HQ in the Abukier Caves, they decided that they could do something about this. They selected two Mk. 5 Spitfires and modified them.
First step was to remove all the paint from the surface and polish the skin. Then they removed all the armor plate and all other possible weight. The engines were up-rated by increasing the boost pressure from 12 to 16 psi. New wing-tips were fitted giving them about 3 ft. 6 inches more length. One had its cannons and mounts removed, leaving only one machine gun in each wing with 50 rounds of ammunition.
They removed its radio and aircraft-battery and installed two smaller motorcycle batteries to provide power for the gun-sight. The canopy was taken off and the aircraft was always flown with open cockpit. The other aircraft did carry radio and had its cannons installed with a limited amount of ammunition.
The method of operation was that they flew together with the radioed aircraft being vectored to the target with the other one following. When they got close to the target plane, the lighter plane succeeded in getting above the German plane and put a few bullets through the pressurized cabin so that the crew was forced to descend, whereupon the other plane with the cannons finished the job. These aircraft were operated from our squadron at El Adem.
An additional measure to reduce weight in the lighter aircraft was that they found an Australian pilot who had been a jockey!
Out of interest, what was the German plane?Back at HQ in the Abukier Caves, they decided that they could do something about this. They selected two Mk. 5 Spitfires and modified them.
First step was to remove all the paint from the surface and polish the skin. Then they removed all the armor plate and all other possible weight. The engines were up-rated by increasing the boost pressure from 12 to 16 psi. New wing-tips were fitted giving them about 3 ft. 6 inches more length. One had its cannons and mounts removed, leaving only one machine gun in each wing with 50 rounds of ammunition.
They removed its radio and aircraft-battery and installed two smaller motorcycle batteries to provide power for the gun-sight. The canopy was taken off and the aircraft was always flown with open cockpit. The other aircraft did carry radio and had its cannons installed with a limited amount of ammunition.
The method of operation was that they flew together with the radioed aircraft being vectored to the target with the other one following. When they got close to the target plane, the lighter plane succeeded in getting above the German plane and put a few bullets through the pressurized cabin so that the crew was forced to descend, whereupon the other plane with the cannons finished the job. These aircraft were operated from our squadron at El Adem.
An additional measure to reduce weight in the lighter aircraft was that they found an Australian pilot who had been a jockey!
The Spits in the photo have rectangular oil cooler radiators. The MkV had a long thin oil cooler radiator with a circular orifice. Additionally they have the multiple ejector exhausts as opposed to the triple ejectors fitted to the Merlin 45 of the MkV. They have the enlarged carburettor air intake and the extended nose of the Merlin 6x and 7x series. Finally they have 4 bladed props. MkVs they are not.
Serials in the photo' are MA504 and MH946, which makes them MkIXs.
Serials in the photo' are MA504 and MH946, which makes them MkIXs.
Edited by Ginetta G15 Girl on Thursday 16th November 22:40
MartG said:
Those early JU86s are ugly. Check out the lower ‘turret’
The P(2) is I think the bottom one,
42,000ft in an unpressurised a/c is in the realm of pressure breathing (which is particularly uncomfortable).
I also question the idea of removing the canopy to fly at that height. On an ISA day (International Standard Atmosphere) the Sea Level temperature would be +15C, the adiabatic lapse rate would be -1.98 degrees C per 1000ft. Thus at 42,0000ft the OAT would calculate out at -68C.
In fact it wouldn't be quite as low since the Temperature at the Tropopause is -56C and remains steady with further increase in height until well into the Stratosphere.
It would somewhat warmer over the desert (the Tropopause would be higher) but still in the realms of flesh freezing (and that's without the wind chill factor).
I also question the idea of removing the canopy to fly at that height. On an ISA day (International Standard Atmosphere) the Sea Level temperature would be +15C, the adiabatic lapse rate would be -1.98 degrees C per 1000ft. Thus at 42,0000ft the OAT would calculate out at -68C.
In fact it wouldn't be quite as low since the Temperature at the Tropopause is -56C and remains steady with further increase in height until well into the Stratosphere.
It would somewhat warmer over the desert (the Tropopause would be higher) but still in the realms of flesh freezing (and that's without the wind chill factor).
Edited by Ginetta G15 Girl on Thursday 16th November 23:28
MartG said:
Thanks!Interesting; I'd never heard of it.
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
42,000ft in an unpressurised a/c is in the realm of pressure breathing (which is particularly uncomfortable).
I also question the idea of removing the canopy to fly at that height. On an ISA day (International Standard Atmosphere) the Sea Level temperature would be +15C, the adiabatic lapse rate would be -1.98 degrees C per 1000ft. Thus at 42,0000ft the OAT would calculate out at -68C.
In fact it wouldn't be quite as low since the Temperature at the Tropopause is -56C and remains steady with further increase in height until well into the Stratosphere.
It would somewhat warmer over the desert (the Tropopause would be higher) but still in the realms of flesh freezing (and that's without the wind chill factor).
Added to which wouldn't removing the canopy increase drag a fair bit for not much weight loss?I also question the idea of removing the canopy to fly at that height. On an ISA day (International Standard Atmosphere) the Sea Level temperature would be +15C, the adiabatic lapse rate would be -1.98 degrees C per 1000ft. Thus at 42,0000ft the OAT would calculate out at -68C.
In fact it wouldn't be quite as low since the Temperature at the Tropopause is -56C and remains steady with further increase in height until well into the Stratosphere.
It would somewhat warmer over the desert (the Tropopause would be higher) but still in the realms of flesh freezing (and that's without the wind chill factor).
Edited by Ginetta G15 Girl on Thursday 16th November 23:28
Very interesting story! Never heard about it. I had to look at the Ju-86P as it is far from a common aeroplane of the Luftwaffe... so they actually did a model edition of this event.
http://rsmodels.cz/en/modely-letadel/plastikove-mo...
http://rsmodels.cz/en/modely-letadel/plastikove-mo...
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