Sourdough breadmaking

[ChocolateFrog]

When you transfer the dough from the banneton to whatever you're baking it in is it normal for it to deflate significantly?

Whenever I've baked before I've Lways done the second prove on whatever I was going to cook it on so never had to transfer it before.

Even being careful I could see it going limp before my eyes

[Whoozit]

ChocolateFrog said:

When you transfer the dough from the banneton to whatever you're baking it in is it normal for it to deflate significantly?

Sourdough will usually spread slightly when you turn the dough out of the banneton, and more so if you score it decoratively. However "deflating" could be a sign of underdeveloped gluten not holding the fermentation gases in. Weather and temperature are also - irritatingly - important factors in both gluten and yeast development so what worked before may not be ideal now. I had to tweak my standard sourdough recipe a month ago when the weather turned cold and humid, even given central heating.

[prand]

ChocolateFrog said:

When you transfer the dough from the banneton to whatever you're baking it in is it normal for it to deflate significantly?

Whenever I've baked before I've Lways done the second prove on whatever I was going to cook it on so never had to transfer it before.

Even being careful I could see it going limp before my eyes

It will deflate and spread if you dough has high hydration, though if it is overproved or gluten is weak (low protein flour?) then I would expect your dough structure to have difficulty keeping the loaf in shape.

My issue is that although my loaves rise nicely, it deflates significantly after cooking and over 24hrs the dough is dense and hard. It's not undercooking as I have checked temperature, and I reckon its either - rubbish starter (which hasn't been the same since the summer fireworks) or that I overproove it. First test this week is with 13.5% protein Canadian flour to see if that holds the structure together better, with a shorter standing/pulling/proving time which is currently 18hrs.

[Whoozit]

prand said:

My issue is that although my loaves rise nicely, it deflates significantly after cooking and over 24hrs the dough is dense and hard....with a shorter standing/pulling/proving time which is currently 18hrs.

Depending on your inoculation % and ambient temp, that may be significantly overproved. My inoculation is 25% (bakers percentage), and my bulk proof is 4 hours at 21-23 C plus overnight in the fridge. Is any of your 18 hours at lower temps?

[prand]

Whoozit said:

Depending on your inoculation % and ambient temp, that may be significantly overproved. My inoculation is 25% (bakers percentage), and my bulk proof is 4 hours at 21-23 C plus overnight in the fridge. Is any of your 18 hours at lower temps?

This is what I'm thinking. I generally mix up the dough at lunchtime, and leave it out on the side at 21C-ishwith a couple of folds in that time and then put it in the fridge overnight...then out the fridge into baneton or baking tin to prove in the boiler cupboard for an hour or so.

I'll try and trim these back and see what happens.

[prand]

Whoozit said:

Depending on your inoculation % and ambient temp, that may be significantly overproved. My inoculation is 25% (bakers percentage), and my bulk proof is 4 hours at 21-23 C plus overnight in the fridge. Is any of your 18 hours at lower temps?

This is what I'm thinking. I generally mix up the dough at lunchtime, and leave it out on the side at 21C-ish with a couple of folds in that time and then put it in the fridge overnight...then out the fridge into baneton or baking tin to prove in the boiler cupboard for an hour or so, baking around lunchtime.

I'll try and trim these, start the first fix much later in the day and reduce final prove time and see what happens.

[shalmaneser]

I have come to the realisation that I'm probably overproofing my dough on the second proof. my ratios are 400 flour, 160 starter and 210 water and I'll do a four hour bulk rise with some folds (depending on how lazy I'm feeling) then second proof overnight in the fridge (so 8/9 hours roughly). The dough tends to sag a lot when I turn it out and the poke test suggests that it's overproofed. I'm going to reduce the amount of starter to 100 grams to see how that gets on.

[J8 SVG]

prand said:

This is what I'm thinking. I generally mix up the dough at lunchtime, and leave it out on the side at 21C-ish with a couple of folds in that time and then put it in the fridge overnight...then out the fridge into baneton or baking tin to prove in the boiler cupboard for an hour or so, baking around lunchtime.

I'll try and trim these, start the first fix much later in the day and reduce final prove time and see what happens.

Try doing your fridge proof in the baneton and don't take it out before baking - straight from fridge to the oven

[Whoozit]

shalmaneser said:

my ratios are 400 flour, 160 starter and 210 water

That's only 60% hydration assuming 100% in your starter (equal flour/water), seems low for sourdough.

shalmaneser said:

I'll do a four hour bulk rise with some folds (depending on how lazy I'm feeling) then second proof overnight in the fridge (so 8/9 hours roughly).

That's my timing also. Don't skimp on the folds, they add a surprising amount of gluten bond strength. Do them gently so as not to squish out the carefully created bubbles. Sourdough doesn't benefit from knocking back, unlike yeasted breads.

shalmaneser said:

The dough tends to sag a lot when I turn it out and the poke test suggests that it's overproofed.

Mine does frequently, but as long as it rises nicely in the oven it's nothing to stress about. I'm not a fan of the poke test, it's over simplified. All it does is tell you there is something wrong with your gluten formation or your yeast production, but not what's the problem.

shalmaneser said:

I'm going to reduce the amount of starter to 100 grams to see how that gets on.

At 30% bakers percentage it's not super high, mine is 25%. It will make a difference but can instead be countered with less time or lower proofing temperature.

[shalmaneser]

Thanks for the feedback. I'd like to go for a higher hydration but I have trouble with the dough sticking to the tea towel I'm proofing it in!

I get a good rise to be fair and the bread is very tasty. I'd like to make it less dense with some higher hydration. Maybe I just need to use a smaller tin for the bake as I use a large cast iron pot which gives loads of space for the bread to spread out. If it was smaller it would look a bit more perky!

[Whoozit]

shalmaneser said:

Maybe I just need to use a smaller tin for the bake as I use a large cast iron pot which gives loads of space for the bread to spread out. If it was smaller it would look a bit more perky!

Good looking loaf, that. You won't get a higher rise without using a tin.

shalmaneser said:

I'd like to go for a higher hydration but I have trouble with the dough sticking to the tea towel I'm proofing it in!

Rice flour is your friend. In the gluten free section of your supermarket, or at all lentil muncher food shops.

Edited by Whoozit on Monday 7th December 20:56

[J8 SVG]

shalmaneser said:

Thanks for the feedback. I'd like to go for a higher hydration but I have trouble with the dough sticking to the tea towel I'm proofing it in!

I get a good rise to be fair and the bread is very tasty. I'd like to make it less dense with some higher hydration. Maybe I just need to use a smaller tin for the bake as I use a large cast iron pot which gives loads of space for the bread to spread out. If it was smaller it would look a bit more perky!

Quoting the wrong message but also worth trying rice flour as a coating flour once you've shaped your dough (Found in the indian section of the supermarket) the bigger particles make the outside of the dough less sticky as it's not absorbed like normal flour

[shalmaneser]

Thanks guys will invest in some rice flour.

[Lynchie999]

this mornings effort... I normally leave it room temp overnight but put it in the fridge... seemed to work well...

[Whoozit]

Lynchie999 said:

this mornings effort... I normally leave it room temp overnight but put it in the fridge... seemed to work well...

That's a fine loaf. Good man!

[LaurasOtherHalf]

You can thank me later

[shalmaneser]

J8 SVG said:

shalmaneser said:

Thanks for the feedback. I'd like to go for a higher hydration but I have trouble with the dough sticking to the tea towel I'm proofing it in!

I get a good rise to be fair and the bread is very tasty. I'd like to make it less dense with some higher hydration. Maybe I just need to use a smaller tin for the bake as I use a large cast iron pot which gives loads of space for the bread to spread out. If it was smaller it would look a bit more perky!

Quoting the wrong message but also worth trying rice flour as a coating flour once you've shaped your dough (Found in the indian section of the supermarket) the bigger particles make the outside of the dough less sticky as it's not absorbed like normal flour

Top tip the rice flour - used it for the first time and no sticking at all! Just made a lovely loaf, will start experimenting with higher hydrations. Going to spend a few quid on a more appropriately size pyrex dish than my big old le creuset. and a proper banneton for proofing.

Funnily enough I actually forgot to stretch and fold the dough (Dredd is on Netflix; great film!) but it still came out very nicely with some last minute kneading before the fridge proof.

[Hanglow]

An even better tip is to use semola rimacinata (extra fine semolina flour), if you get a good italian one then you can also make breads from it - imo the best bread in the world is made from it, pane di matera, use it for focaccia such as focaccia barese, and of course pasta etc. Also great for dusting pizza peels

[chemistry]

Still lockdown. Still baking sourdough. #groundhogday

[ChocolateFrog]

My starter has been languishing for longer than I care to remember in my fridge. Pulled it out this evening and gave it a feed so will see if it revives.