Demijohns - Making booze

[Gaz3376]

4x4Tyke said:

Gaz3376 said:

4x4Tyke said:

I've always used Demijohns for wine and buckets for beer.

Cider or Scrumpy is very quick and easy as starter. 3 Litres of supermarket apple juice, wine yeast, nutrient and pectinase. The fresh apple juice will give you a rough Scrumpy and the UHT cartons if you like your cider bright. After 10-14 days it will generally start to clear and settle. If you like your cider strong and sweet you can supplement with sugar to taste. I use 250g of Demerara sugar which gives better final result than pure sucrose.

Mead (Honey Wine) is also pretty easy but takes much longer to finish. 1L of apple juice, 3 jars of pure Honey, wine yeast and nutrient. That can ferment for 3 months, let it clear naturally, bottle and leave in cool dark place for at least another 6 months.

Do you add the demerara when bottling, will this contribute to the alcohol content?

Sugar that you want to be turned into alcohol should be added when the mix is first made up, but could be added anytime before stabilisation (when the yeast is killed). Alcohol vs. sweetness is a trade off, but there is a cap on the alcohol since alcohol inhibits the yeast, at that point extra sugar will increase the sweetness but not alcohol. If you let it self stabilise, then 250g will give you strong medium dry result, 500g will give you a strong medium to medium-sweet cider, 600-700g will give a very sweet cider. Apple juice is around 10% sugar already, so 3L already includes around 300g of sugar.

The reason to add sugar when bottling is to make the mixture sparkling (fizzy) and you only need a little to do this, a half flat teaspoon. Add too much sugar at bottling and you risk the bottle exploding. When bottling sparkling leave plenty of air in the bottle neck.

You can control this closely with a hydrometer this but I didn't want to complicate things too much.

I recommend going with the first receipt and than adjusting things to taste, it will be pretty strong, above 10% alcohol.

Edited by 4x4Tyke on Thursday 13th July 12:24

So could i use less sugar to make a slightly less potent cider? maybe add some sweetener to make up the sweetness?

[4x4Tyke]

Gaz3376 said:

So could i use less sugar to make a slightly less potent cider? maybe add some sweetener to make up the sweetness?

Yes, but I've never used sweetener. I would stabilise it (kill the yeast) then sweeten to taste with real sugar.

http://www.wilko.com/homebrew-accessories+equipmen...

Edited by 4x4Tyke on Thursday 13th July 15:35

[Gaz3376]

4x4Tyke said:

Gaz3376 said:

So could i use less sugar to make a slightly less potent cider? maybe add some sweetener to make up the sweetness?

Yes, but I've never used sweetener. I would stabilise it (kill the yeast) then sweeten to taste with real sugar.

http://www.wilko.com/homebrew-accessories+equipmen...

Edited by 4x4Tyke on Thursday 13th July 15:35

I see, got you.

[Gaz3376]

4x4Tyke said:

I've always used Demijohns for wine and buckets for beer.

Cider or Scrumpy is very quick and easy as starter. 3 Litres of supermarket apple juice, wine yeast, nutrient and pectinase. The fresh apple juice will give you a rough Scrumpy and the UHT cartons if you like your cider bright. After 10-14 days it will generally start to clear and settle. If you like your cider strong and sweet you can supplement with sugar to taste. I use 250g of Demerara sugar which gives better final result than pure sucrose.

Mead (Honey Wine) is also pretty easy but takes much longer to finish. 1L of apple juice, 3 jars of pure Honey, wine yeast, nutrient and water. That can ferment for 3 months, let it clear naturally, bottle and leave in cool dark place for at least another 6 months to mature.

Edited by 4x4Tyke on Thursday 13th July 12:43

I'm going to try and start the cider off tomorrow, if I just rely on the sugar in the apple juice without adding extra, what sort of alcohol content can I expect? And also how do I go about judging the alcohol content? I got a hydrometer today.

[Wiccan of Darkness]

Gaz3376 said:

I'm going to try and start the cider off tomorrow, if I just rely on the sugar in the apple juice without adding extra, what sort of alcohol content can I expect? And also how do I go about judging the alcohol content? I got a hydrometer today.

If you rely only on the sugars in the apples it will be as dry as a nuns' muff.



The hydrometer measures the specifig gravity of the booze and will give you an idea of how much alcohol will be produced/is in the solution, I forget which. I stopped using it years ago. A kilo of sugar gives about 10% alcohol in a gallon.

[227bhp]

Gaz3376 said:

I'm going to try and start the cider off tomorrow, if I just rely on the sugar in the apple juice without adding extra, what sort of alcohol content can I expect? And also how do I go about judging the alcohol content? I got a hydrometer today.

You've answered your own initial question there; DJs are for learning with. If it's crap, at least you've only got 4.5 litres of it. Once you've made some you like and want to repeat it you can fill a 25litre bucket. With DJs try different recipes in each one, just don't forget to make notes, i've got loads of them I don't use any more, it's all done in buckets now.
Some folks are getting their quantities mixed up, 1kg of normal sugar to 25 litres of apple juice will get circa 9 - 10% cider.
You use your hydrometer to take a before and after reading to give you your % alcohol, with no sugar i'd guess 3 - 4% vol.

What you are discussing is called Turbo cider, make sure you get apple juice with no additives (it can come from concentrate, as long as it's 100% apple juice. TC is harsh or rough, if you like it like that then ok, if you don't then add artificial sweetener, if you've messed up, but don't want to sling it you can put those sugar free coffee sweeteners in. You can buy a cider yeast on Ebay with the correct amount of sweetener in it to make a medium drinkable cider with 9 - 10% vol.
Once you've got the hang of it you can try chucking allsorts in, a jar of honey (microwaved until thin), minced sultanas (in a muslin bag in a bucket), Oak chips, T-bags in boiled water will give it tannin or a rhubarb flavour and a dash of cochineal to make er, rhubarb cider....

I've got mine to be just how I like it now and save a fortune, then I started buying wine kits, you can't beat a decent bottle for £2 - £3 excluding equipment. Bramble wine is easy too, I'm currently experimenting with turboyeast, this will make 24% from just water and sugar, which you then add flavours to to make a liqueur.

Edited by 227bhp on Tuesday 18th July 23:57

[4x4Tyke]

If you end up with a cider you don't like, it makes a great liquid base for stock for slow roasting pork and chicken.

[C0ffin D0dger]

227bhp said:

Some folks are getting their quantities mixed up, 1kg of normal sugar to 25 litres of apple juice will get circa 9 - 10% cider.

Not quite. The average carton of supermarket concentrated apple juice contains about 100g of fermentable sugar in a litre. So 25L is 2.5kg of sugar, add another bag of white sugar on top of that is 3.5kg total sugar and you'll get a starting gravity of around 1.053. Assuming this ferments out to around 1.000 as most cider yeasts can do this you'll end up with a ABV of 6.9 - 7%. Still strong, not unusual for a cider, but not the 9 - 10% suggested.

[227bhp]

4x4Tyke said:

If you end up with a cider you don't like, it makes a great liquid base for stock for slow roasting pork and chicken.

Or steaming mussels in instead of wine.
When I made some really strong harsh stuff we heated it in a pan, added honey, mulled wine spice and made it into a hot Winter drink, Schwartz make a 'mulled wine spice' premix which you can use too.

[Gaz3376]

227bhp said:

You've answered your own initial question there; DJs are for learning with. If it's crap, at least you've only got 4.5 litres of it. Once you've made some you like and want to repeat it you can fill a 25litre bucket. With DJs try different recipes in each one, just don't forget to make notes, i've got loads of them I don't use any more, it's all done in buckets now.
Some folks are getting their quantities mixed up, 1kg of normal sugar to 25 litres of apple juice will get circa 9 - 10% cider.
You use your hydrometer to take a before and after reading to give you your % alcohol, with no sugar i'd guess 3 - 4% vol.

What you are discussing is called Turbo cider, make sure you get apple juice with no additives (it can come from concentrate, as long as it's 100% apple juice. TC is harsh or rough, if you like it like that then ok, if you don't then add artificial sweetener, if you've messed up, but don't want to sling it you can put those sugar free coffee sweeteners in. You can buy a cider yeast on Ebay with the correct amount of sweetener in it to make a medium drinkable cider with 9 - 10% vol.
Once you've got the hang of it you can try chucking allsorts in, a jar of honey (microwaved until thin), minced sultanas (in a muslin bag in a bucket), Oak chips, T-bags in boiled water will give it tannin or a rhubarb flavour and a dash of cochineal to make er, rhubarb cider....

I've got mine to be just how I like it now and save a fortune, then I started buying wine kits, you can't beat a decent bottle for £2 - £3 excluding equipment. Bramble wine is easy too, I'm currently experimenting with turboyeast, this will make 24% from just water and sugar, which you then add flavours to to make a liqueur.

Edited by 227bhp on Tuesday 18th July 23:57

Ive ordered some cider yeast off ebay that has sweetener included, and plan on making a turbo cider when it arrives. Love the idea of Rhubarb Cider, maybe some ginger would compliment it too.

[227bhp]

Gaz3376 said:

Ive ordered some cider yeast off ebay that has sweetener included, and plan on making a turbo cider when it arrives. Love the idea of Rhubarb Cider, maybe some ginger would compliment it too.

Be careful with the quantities, 1 sachet does 22 - 25 litres (a brewing bucket full). You can separate it like coke into 4 piles
I had some rhubarb cider at a pub once and it was lovely, so I searched the 'net for a bottle of flavouring and just put two or three drops per 330 bottle. It's usual to think that using a primary ingredient like rhubarb makes rhubarb flavoured drink, it doesn't really once it's been through the process, although homemade cider has far less chemicals in and more actual juice, you have to take some ideas from the major manufacturers.
Ginger flavouring here:
http://www.lakeland.co.uk/16828/Star-Kay-White-Foo...

As per above, put it in when bottling or even into your glass if just trying it out.
There is a lot to learn, but it's good fun, at this time of the year with the ambient temp what it is it's easy to get it started too - good luck.

[Gaz3376]

227bhp said:

Be careful with the quantities, 1 sachet does 22 - 25 litres (a brewing bucket full). You can separate it like coke into 4 piles
I had some rhubarb cider at a pub once and it was lovely, so I searched the 'net for a bottle of flavouring and just put two or three drops per 330 bottle. It's usual to think that using a primary ingredient like rhubarb makes rhubarb flavoured drink, it doesn't really once it's been through the process, although homemade cider has far less chemicals in and more actual juice, you have to take some ideas from the major manufacturers.
Ginger flavouring here:
http://www.lakeland.co.uk/16828/Star-Kay-White-Foo...

As per above, put it in when bottling or even into your glass if just trying it out.
There is a lot to learn, but it's good fun, at this time of the year with the ambient temp what it is it's easy to get it started too - good luck.

If i dont use all the yeast will it keep?

[4x4Tyke]

Gaz3376 said:

If i dont use all the yeast will it keep?

Yes, dried yeast keeps well providing it is in air (moisture) tight container.

[Johnnytheboy]

I made cider this year by just bunging my own apple juice in demijohns and leaving for 9 months.

It tastes like vinegar but by Christ is it strong.

Think I need to now start refining the recipe.

Have eight apple trees I think, so no shortage of fruit.

[4x4Tyke]

Johnnytheboy said:

I made cider this year by just bunging my own apple juice in demijohns and leaving for 9 months.

It tastes like vinegar but by Christ is it strong.

Think I need to now start refining the recipe.

Have eight apple trees I think, so no shortage of fruit.

The natural environments is full of wild yeasts, these are all sorts of strains, some produce good results some do not. Your apple juice will be full of spores for both of these. This is the reason for brewers obsession with cleanliness. We want to enhance the useful yeasts and inhibit the others. You can sterilise your juice with Campden tablets, wait two days before you add your selected yeast.

[Johnnytheboy]

4x4Tyke said:

Johnnytheboy said:

I made cider this year by just bunging my own apple juice in demijohns and leaving for 9 months.

It tastes like vinegar but by Christ is it strong.

Think I need to now start refining the recipe.

Have eight apple trees I think, so no shortage of fruit.

The natural environments is full of wild yeasts, these are all sorts of strains, some produce good results some do not. Your apple juice will be full of spores for both of these. This is the reason for brewers obsession with cleanliness. We want to enhance the useful yeasts and inhibit the others. You can sterilise your juice with Campden tablets, wait two days before you add your selected yeast.

Yes, going to do the sterilise/yeast thing next time.

I also used all the apples we had, and the one tree that fruited most mentally was the cooker, so they will have made it drier.

[otolith]

I made two demijohns of cider from my own apples last year. One is a mixture of proper bittersweet cider apples and eaters (first year I got a harvest from the cider apple tree), and the other is just eaters. I have made it before with apples from my Bramley tree, but that needs diluting with eating apple juice and some frigging about with in order to be drinkable, it's just too sour otherwise.

I have bottled and consumed one of them, and very good it was too. Unfortunately, I didn't label the demijohns because they were obviously different colours, but then forgot which was which...

I also have a batch of turbo cider made at the same time with supermarket apple and mango. Haven't tried that. Might well be nasty!

[Jambo85]

Johnnytheboy said:

Yes, going to do the sterilise/yeast thing next time.

I also used all the apples we had, and the one tree that fruited most mentally was the cooker, so they will have made it drier.

It is possible that you have a vinegar infection but actually I doubt it - and although cleanliness is essential in brewing it isn't that practical when making cider. And somehow it usually tends to be OK - I expect the acidity helps.

You're onto something in your post above but the explanation isn't quite right. "Dry" means no residual sugar - while beer for example can retain sweetness since malt contains complex sugars which are not all fermentable, the sugar in all apples is 100% fructose which is entirely fermentable by yeast. Therefore cider will ALWAYS be as dry as a nun's chuff unless you take steps to ensure there is some residual sweetness by doing one of the following:

- using a non fermentable sweetener - lactose or something artificial
- killing the yeast post fermentation and then adding sugar - a dangerous strategy as you may not kill all the yeast and then you get exploding bottles
- Adding so much sugar and/or using a yeast with a low alcohol tolerance such that the yeast gets killed off by high alcohol concentration before fermenting all the sugar.

None of these are really ideal IMO.

Now back to your cider - vinegar is ethanoic acid; apple acidity is malic acid, and cookers have much more of this than dessert apples. Ferment away the sugar and probably what you are tasting (as you suggest) is the acidity from the cookers.

A variety of apples is what makes a good cider; too many cookers and you get the result you've got, all dessert apples and it isn't quite sharp enough and can be a bit ... bogging. Proper cider apple varieties are in the middle - fairly sharp with a high sugar content. Crab apples are good too for some tannin. You either need to leave some cookers out or measure the pH of the juice and add chemicals to move it to the ideal range - which is 3.2 to 3.8 from my reading.

I believe malo-lactic fermentation is the only real non-chemical way to make a decent cider from cookers but it seems to be a dark art.

[otolith]

Jambo85 said:

I believe malo-lactic fermentation is the only real non-chemical way to make a decent cider from cookers but it seems to be a dark art.

You can buy freeze dried malolactic cultures if you want to knock the acidity back that way. I've had some success with them.

[Jambo85]

Interesting, thanks Otolith. I should have stated in my last post that I have learned it all the hard way - I still have a corny keg full of Bramley cider. It is perfectly clear, well carbonated and has fantastic appley flavours, but by christ is it sour.