"Visibility Splays" as part of planning permission...

"Visibility Splays" as part of planning permission...

Author
Discussion

Flat-6

Original Poster:

2,344 posts

169 months

Wednesday 26th July 2017
quotequote all
Afternoon all, first post in this bit of the forum!

Right, so basically I'm setting up a sports club, in a field.

As part of the planning permission (yes its required, as i'll be way over the 28-day rule) I have been asked to submit "Visibility splays" for the access.

Has anyone had to do this? as I'm struggling to figure out quite how to deal with the situation on paper.
Basically you are supposed to measure out 215m from the access point either way and have direct line of sight to see oncoming cars at that distance.
Now in my case this is impossible in both directions: one way there is a traffic island about 100m away, which you CAN see clearly: I think that's OK. The other way the road turns very slightly about 150m away meaning the hedge is in the way (in the distance)

There's nothing I can do about the position of the access or the shape of the roads... So in essence it would be completely impossible to comply with this 215m splay - will the council accept the use of a secondary safety precautions such as warning signage on game days? Or am I stuffed?
Its not like I'm building a supermarket, I'd only expect 40 cars a week...






Equus

16,766 posts

100 months

Wednesday 26th July 2017
quotequote all
2.4 x 215 vis splay requirement tells me that you're forming an access onto a NSL road?

But yes, there may be other arguments you can make, or other alternatives (eg. traffic calming measures; kerb realignment at the junction, alternative junction design... none of which are cheap, though). Extra signage on its own is unlikely to be satisfactory: there's a bit of a downer on road signage at the moment... Difficult to say, without seeing the drawings, though. You want a highways engineering consultant, really; PM me if you wish to discuss or if you would like me to point you in the direction of one, but of course they'll want paying.

The rules are set out in a couple of documents called the Design Manual for Roads and Bridges (DMRB) and Manual for Streets (MfS).

Swervin_Mervin

4,429 posts

237 months

Wednesday 26th July 2017
quotequote all
Happy to answer any queries you might have on this - transport planning/highway engineering is my day job. Just PM me.

What's the speed limit on the main route? 215m would, as Equus says, suggest 60mph. There are a few things that could be looked at before coming to a view as to whether you're going to struggle or not.

Flat-6

Original Poster:

2,344 posts

169 months

Wednesday 26th July 2017
quotequote all
Correct yes, its the access to the field that comes out onto an NSL road - I've sat and watched traffic and its going full speed annoyingly. Although stuff from the one side should be (thinking about) slowing for the roundabout.

Although I fear it may be 4.5m x 215, as it could be classed as commercial (?)
You can literally see f-all from 4.5m into the entrance!! (trees)
Where the entrance is is literally the single only point where it could be (it's been there for years, and is tarmac'ed) due to the shape and location of the field.

I'm waiting for a reply from the highways dept of Leicester council.

Thanks for the offer of help, I may do that!

Flat-6

Original Poster:

2,344 posts

169 months

Wednesday 26th July 2017
quotequote all
On the positive side the entrance is directly opposite a turn to a small lane, so anyone familiar with the road could well already be expecting the possibility of a car pulling out at that position....

Dr Murdoch

3,427 posts

134 months

Wednesday 26th July 2017
quotequote all
Trouble is the Council will take the view of those who may be unfamiliar with the road (quite rightly imo).

I assume the hedging is on 3rd party land? If not then then this can be trimmed and maintained (it won't be maintained, but in this instance thats not the point)

I doubt that you would be able to convince the Council to lower the speed restriction (thus reduce visibility requirements), however it has been known and we're recently undertaken a few projects where this has been agreed.

If you get traffic count / speed data indicating that speeds are low, or lower than 60mph then you could have an argument.


Flat-6

Original Poster:

2,344 posts

169 months

Wednesday 26th July 2017
quotequote all
Dr Murdoch said:
Trouble is the Council will take the view of those who may be unfamiliar with the road (quite rightly imo).

I assume the hedging is on 3rd party land? If not then then this can be trimmed and maintained (it won't be maintained, but in this instance thats not the point)

I doubt that you would be able to convince the Council to lower the speed restriction (thus reduce visibility requirements), however it has been known and we're recently undertaken a few projects where this has been agreed.

If you get traffic count / speed data indicating that speeds are low, or lower than 60mph then you could have an argument.
The hedge to the one side is on the land-owner's land so something could be done (Im paying him a lot more than the agricultural rate so he'll want the planning to go through!!! However it would still be impossible to see 215m due to the slight curvature of the road.
On the other side towards the roundabout the trees that are in the way are on Highways land (the verge) - so I would probably not be allowed to trim them even for safety's sake.

I'll post some drivers'-eye photos later when i get home.

blueg33

35,573 posts

223 months

Wednesday 26th July 2017
quotequote all
Equus and Swervin are correct. Take their advice even if you have to pay for it.

All my land deals are conditional upon being anle to form relevant vid splays.

You will struggle if the vis splays require third party land that is not highway land as you will have no control over what the landowner may do.

Swervin_Mervin

4,429 posts

237 months

Wednesday 26th July 2017
quotequote all
If the restrictions to visibility all fall on highway land or land under the control of the landowner, then a solution is possible.

The planning authority might not like the removal/lowering of any hedges though.

Flat-6

Original Poster:

2,344 posts

169 months

Wednesday 26th July 2017
quotequote all
Thanks all :-D
Really wasn't expecting this much of a response!!!!

(I've PM/Emailed Swervin_Mervin)

This is the CURRENT state of the driver's view - obviously it's quite over grown, the right-hand view could be made MUCH better by cutting that tree back a bit, that's on Highway's land. To the Left you actually CAN see traffic (just) at 215m.

However these are from a real car, not the arbitrary 2.4 / 4.5m.




Edited by Flat-6 on Wednesday 26th July 18:17

cossy400

3,153 posts

183 months

Wednesday 26th July 2017
quotequote all
Not my area but i do drive truck for a living.


On my travels you see in certain areas, that at the exits/entrances can only be entered /exited by turning only one way, But looking at the pictures you d be ok with the entrance thing depending on how thick the lot coming from the left are. (and them being able to stop etc)

But its only a short journey to the roundabout to spin and come back.

Now just because ive seen it done like that I don't know the legalitys and the what ifs of if someone ignores said signs and thus caused an accident.

MY 2P, ill await the flaming by someone far more qualified than me.

cossy400

3,153 posts

183 months

Wednesday 26th July 2017
quotequote all
Not my area but i do drive truck for a living.


On my travels you see in certain areas, that at the exits/entrances can only be entered /exited by turning only one way, But looking at the pictures you d be ok with the entrance thing depending on how thick the lot coming from the left are. (and them being able to stop etc)

But its only a short journey to the roundabout to spin and come back.

Now just because ive seen it done like that I don't know the legalitys and the what ifs of if someone ignores said signs and thus caused an accident.

MY 2P, ill await the flaming by someone far more qualified than me.

Flat-6

Original Poster:

2,344 posts

169 months

Wednesday 26th July 2017
quotequote all
You have a very valid point and certainly worth thinking about!

However I will say this is likely to be more of an issue with people turning OUT in-front of a fast moving car than turning in.

Equus

16,766 posts

100 months

Wednesday 26th July 2017
quotequote all
I'm making the assumption that your problem is that you're trying to do this for little or no budget - expecting that creating a sports field would just be a matter of putting the planning application in then stoning up the access and parking area to form a hardstanding?

The problem you will run in to is that where Planning is concerned, road safety has to be done right. If you can't achieve a safe access, they'll refuse the application. If you don't own the land necessary to form the visibility splay, or don't have the cash to make the necessary highways improvements, that's not their problem - they won't cut corners with public safety to accommodate you.

Developers run into this sort of thing all the time: sites are frequently written off as not viable, if a safe access is not possible, or anything up to £hundreds of thousands (even £millions) spent on off-site highways improvements to facilitate the development (Google "Section 278 Agreement").

Hopefully Swervin Mervin will be able to point you in the right direction if a cheap and easily negotiable solution is available, though.

Flat-6

Original Poster:

2,344 posts

169 months

Wednesday 26th July 2017
quotequote all
Correct, I have a good budget for the field, buildings, insurance, etc etc etc, but zero budget for this - and I realise that anything do do with road infrastructure is an excessively over-priced money pit.

I didn't see this coming at all (Oh, that's a pun!), and it was only mentioned by the planning officer AFTER submitting and paying for the application.

Aaaanyway i'll see what we can do...


Equus

16,766 posts

100 months

Wednesday 26th July 2017
quotequote all
Flat-6 said:
...I have a good budget for the... buildings
Have you had an Architect involved? Not that it will help you any, but I'd be having very stern words with them, if you have. This is basic and fundamental stuff from a design feasibility perspective, and should have been picked up at an early stage.

Similarly, if you sought formal pre-application advice from the Planners, they should have picked it up as an issue for consideration straight away - but again not much you can do about it at this juncture, other than have a good grumble at them

Flat-6

Original Poster:

2,344 posts

169 months

Wednesday 26th July 2017
quotequote all
Equus said:
Have you had an Architect involved? Not that it will help you any, but I'd be having very stern words with them, if you have. This is basic and fundamental stuff from a design feasibility perspective, and should have been picked up at an early stage.

Similarly, if you sought formal pre-application advice from the Planners, they should have picked it up as an issue for consideration straight away - but again not much you can do about it at this juncture, other than have a good grumble at them
No, there will be simply a big shed and some shelters.

IF it is turned down on this, I will take it up with them that it wasn't mentioned during pre-application.

I'm sure we can come to some arrangement, its not extremely bad vision when you are actually on-site, its just a total fail when you actually draw it out on a map. Nor is it like a housing estate where people are coming and going all day and night, its probably going to see 40 cars a week over 2 days and only at arrival and leaving times.



Escort3500

11,827 posts

144 months

Wednesday 26th July 2017
quotequote all
Swervin_Mervin said:
If the restrictions to visibility all fall on highway land or land under the control of the landowner, then a solution is possible.

The planning authority might not like the removal/lowering of any hedges though.
Or they might accept removal of the offending hedge and planting of a new one behind the visibility splay as part of a landscaping scheme.

Flat-6

Original Poster:

2,344 posts

169 months

Wednesday 26th July 2017
quotequote all
I think its going to be do-able without any road alterations, its just a bit of give-n-take I think.


blueg33

35,573 posts

223 months

Wednesday 26th July 2017
quotequote all
You don't get much give and take when it comes to highway safety and vis splays. The splay either complies or it doesn't, on a road like that its pretty hard to argue a setback of less than 4.5m.

That large tree could well be a problem, looking left out of the exit is the most critical as oncoming cars are on your side of the road.

I wouldn't expect this to be raised at pre-app automatically ( we usually invite Highways to a pre-app to help prevent this scenario). Its a Highways issue first and has probably come up as part of the statutory consultation with the Highways Dept.