RE: Prior Convictions: the disappearing manual M-car
Friday 20th October 2017
It isn't said explicitly but it is implied. Halfway down this story over at The Autocar, BMW M-Division's Vice President Dirk Hacker addresses the inevitable question, again: what hope the manual gearbox, Dirk?
"I like manual very much," Hacker says, like a soon to be ex-partner complimenting you on how nice you are - really, you are - before announcing they've met somebody far more attractive. "But the take-up rate from customers on cars other than the M2 is just going down," he says. "The fact is that a double-clutch gearbox delivers better performance and efficiency." And, you know, it tidies up after itself, cooks dinner, puts on a shirt when we're going out, pays into the joint account when it should. It's not you, it's me. But it's also you. Actually it's mostly you.
And this talk about more efficiency and better performance? It's true, certainly. But on the E60 M5 launch, a car which had the SMG single-clutch automated gearbox, I remember engineers being asked about a new dual-clutch transmission that a different manufacturer had just launched. We asked: "Have you tried one? Because it seems like the future." Ja ja, they said (I paraphrase), but there's more to life than instantaneous shifts. This SMG gearbox is more emotional.
Prior Convictions: The disappearing manual M-car
BMW ponders the future of the manual gearbox. Prior recalls Subbuteo's proposed early bath.
Mostly Hacker's talking about how nice it'll be to make more GTS and CSL-style models. Demand is there, after all, for limited-run, driver-focused BMWs for keen drivers to swoon over. You know: the limited-edition sort that sells out, keeps the brand front of mind, that sort of thing.
But then, not unreasonably, he's asked about manuals.
And so the implication is clear enough. Manuals? Forget 'em. But we've been here before, haven't we? And it's hard not to be cynical, but it sounds like when they threatened to take Subbeteo off sale. Everyone had to say: "But we really want a manual 911 GT3" before Porsche relented. And Americans had to really ask for a manual BMW M5? - ?but then they got one.
It wasn't, though it's a decent reply. And one they might like to apply to the manual transmission, and remember this time around.
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Discussion
Nice one Matt. Like you and many others (though not the great majority of car buyers I accept) I enjoy driving - i.e. doing it myself - steering, braking, changing gears, even managing the traction god forbid! Every time I jump in my supercharged Toyota 86 - rain, hail or shine - I always turn the traction and stability control off.
On the face of it this will not make me safer on road or on a track day, and means I am having to think and manage the car to the conditions. I do this however because I enjoy it and I also firmly believe it makes me a better driver overall and requires me to be in the moment when I am driving - aware, working on the job on hand, and above all else enjoying it
Before manufacturers go charging off into the future with self-driving, electric whisper and automated everything they need to be acknowledge that part of their market wants to do all this stuff themselves. Failing to deliver suitable vehicles for this part of the market means I for one am neither a customer nor a fan
On the face of it this will not make me safer on road or on a track day, and means I am having to think and manage the car to the conditions. I do this however because I enjoy it and I also firmly believe it makes me a better driver overall and requires me to be in the moment when I am driving - aware, working on the job on hand, and above all else enjoying it
Before manufacturers go charging off into the future with self-driving, electric whisper and automated everything they need to be acknowledge that part of their market wants to do all this stuff themselves. Failing to deliver suitable vehicles for this part of the market means I for one am neither a customer nor a fan
In the most part people buy bmw’s As daily drivers not weekend toys. Sadly in the UK now the traffic is so bad that only a fully automatic box makes sense. Combine that with the fact that a modern fast shifting auto or dsg box is faster round a German test track and you can’t blame them for discontinuing manuals in mainstream models. In America it’s a bit different, there are still parts of the country where traffic isn’t a problem and you can drive a manual daily without it becomeing frustrating, hence the continued production of manual muscle cars. Before long the steering will be fully automatic too. It’s not like electric steering will be a great loss anyway.
...que rant about automatic lights being on all the time as people have forgotten to drive with courtesy to oncoming traffic and seem to not mind blinding everyone with full beam when they should be on side lights....
...que rant about automatic lights being on all the time as people have forgotten to drive with courtesy to oncoming traffic and seem to not mind blinding everyone with full beam when they should be on side lights....
I agree with the sentiments about the auto box making a lot more sense in the UK now due to the levels of traffic. My daily, a 435d coupe is auto and I just think in the grind of daily traffic it would be a different car if it were manual. On the other hand my CSL was only ever made in SMG so I suppose I accept that and it's a great car to drive. However, when I hop in the missus' Swift Sport which is a manual I'm instantly reminded about what I'm missing, it's a great little car that's engaging to drive and I think a huge part of that is the manual box and possibly the n/a engine (but that's for another discussion). It's a sad fact that the manual transmission is a dying breed.
Porsche can get away with offering to market niche models with a manual 'box. They don't have to try to sell them as they are made in such small numbers, overly fawned over by the press, seen my most buyers as purely investments, sold to the mates of the dealers and flipped. The R&D for these halo models is paid back by the elevated RRP and to an extent the halo effect on less models. Notwithstanding, Porsche makes more money per car than any other mass producer.
BMW don't have the same cachet regarding their halo models nor profit per vehicle and therefore there isn't the money to develop two gearbox options. Which do you choose? The DSG! With the hope that punters wanting lesser models will spec the DSG from the options list just because "that's what the best one has".
Also, for many, a large number of the buyers are buying as an extension of their ego. "My car is faster than your's, mine has DSG, this, that and other". "The DSG is faster". It's all about the projecting their superior machinery as an extension of their own capabilities and in such a mind set, who would expose themselves to a fluffed gear change or a stalled hill start?
BMW don't have the same cachet regarding their halo models nor profit per vehicle and therefore there isn't the money to develop two gearbox options. Which do you choose? The DSG! With the hope that punters wanting lesser models will spec the DSG from the options list just because "that's what the best one has".
Also, for many, a large number of the buyers are buying as an extension of their ego. "My car is faster than your's, mine has DSG, this, that and other". "The DSG is faster". It's all about the projecting their superior machinery as an extension of their own capabilities and in such a mind set, who would expose themselves to a fluffed gear change or a stalled hill start?
ducnick said:
In the most part people buy bmw’s As daily drivers not weekend toys. Sadly in the UK now the traffic is so bad that only a fully automatic box makes sense.
That depends where you live; for example I average 54mph on my daily commute (ETA: without breaking any speed limits), and I'm not even in a far flung part of the country. However, your point is still valid, because it demonstrates where the money is in the country and where most M3 buyers tend to live...Edited by RobM77 on Friday 20th October 09:38
ducnick said:
Sadly in the UK now the traffic is so bad that only a fully automatic box makes sense. Combine that with the fact that a modern fast shifting auto or dsg box is faster round a German test track and you can’t blame them for discontinuing manuals in mainstream models.
Is that a good enough reason to stop offering a manual option though?I believe that over 70% of cars that are sold in Britain today have a manual gearbox. So, automatics are still the minority. Regardless of heavy traffic or the fact that these dual-clutch systems can shift faster than we ever could, that doesn't seem to be putting many off.
I do get what you're saying. My commute is a nightmare, as was re-highlighted to me particularly, last night. It's generally less than 10 miles there an back but it's close the Manchester city centre. It's almost completely stop/start and is pretty awful.
I actually really want an automatic. Not just for the above reason(s) but also because i'm generally getting a bit bored of driving a manual. However, despite all of this, i'm just not convinced that manufacturers should stop giving us the choice.
Edited by culpz on Friday 20th October 12:15
Gus265 said:
But don't M2s have that self blipping function on the throttle when you change down a gear in a manual? On the M4 aswell? That would drive me insane as that is half the fun!
I don't know about M2's, but my other half's Mini Clubman diesel has it, if you can believe that! It drives me insane.BMW also don't make very nice manual gearboxes if the last few late ones I've driven are any guide. Horrible, agricultural feeling shift quality, although admittedly these weren't M cars.
RobM77 said:
Does anyone know if DCTs are still really heavy compared to manual boxes? That's one obvious advantage of a manual gearbox. How about the ZF Auto that BMW use now?
I seem to remember reading somewhere that someone had compared two otherwise identically equipped M3s and found a 20ish kg difference. Not much when you consider it's a 1.5 tonne car and the extra stuff is pretty much bang on the centre of mass of the whole vehicle The manual / auto conversation is a well trodden path.
We all come to this site because we like cars and we like driving, so I'd hope almost everyone here would fight the manual box's corner. But I bet even on here a big chunk of us would shy away from ticking the "manual" box on the spec sheet. And that's on here! The fact is, we aren't the majority. We're outnumbered 100:1 by people who only want a car that delivers the better numbers or gets them around with little fuss. So how can we seriously expect businesses to put themselves out of pocket developing products for a tiny slither of customers. I wish it wasn't the case...
We all come to this site because we like cars and we like driving, so I'd hope almost everyone here would fight the manual box's corner. But I bet even on here a big chunk of us would shy away from ticking the "manual" box on the spec sheet. And that's on here! The fact is, we aren't the majority. We're outnumbered 100:1 by people who only want a car that delivers the better numbers or gets them around with little fuss. So how can we seriously expect businesses to put themselves out of pocket developing products for a tiny slither of customers. I wish it wasn't the case...
ducnick said:
Sadly in the UK now the traffic is so bad that only a fully automatic box makes sense. Combine that with the fact that a modern fast shifting auto or dsg box is faster round a German test track and you can’t blame them for discontinuing manuals in mainstream models. In America it’s a bit different, there are still parts of the country where traffic isn’t a problem and you can drive a manual daily without it becomeing frustrating
I think this depends on what you are using the car for, and to be fair if you need one car to do everything.We are lucky to have both manual & auto in the family fleet and we love them both, they both have their place. Having lived with a good auto in the family barge I would never go manual again for this workhorse .... but as for the other two more 'fun' orientated vehicles (one is still used for a commute btw) both are manual and they are great. We live in south Mcr and yes the roads are busy but we still find plenty of time to enjoy the control of a manual on the road, be it sunrise blasts round N Wales, trips to the NW Highlands or just nipping out to the Peak District for a pint.
Would I prefer a manual sports car - yes probably.
Would I buy an automatic sports car - tricky but yes probably would given how good some boxes are now. The new Alpine could well tempt me in to an auto sports car if it is as good as we all hope, all the other attributes look perfect for my tastes. Would I have preferred the option to choose manual vs auto in this new sports car .... absolutely !!
ducnick said:
In the most part people buy bmw’s As daily drivers not weekend toys. Sadly in the UK now the traffic is so bad that only a fully automatic box makes sense.
No, only in the SE where far too many people are crowded-in.My commute takes me across 33 miles and except for the one (badly-excuted) town-bypass and the end-town, I'm on open roads and not crawling in traffic. Note this is the Midlands, not the wild North or (heaven forbid) Scotland...
I REALLY wish people in the SE would stop assuming the rest of the country is as miserable to drive in as their locale.
The only time I wish I had an auto is when I subject myself to the M25 (or occasionally the M6).
(Full disclosure - born and brought up in SE, still visit regularly)
RobM77 said:
ducnick said:
In the most part people buy bmw’s As daily drivers not weekend toys. Sadly in the UK now the traffic is so bad that only a fully automatic box makes sense.
That depends where you live; for example I average 54mph on my daily commute (ETA: without breaking any speed limits), and I'm not even in a far flung part of the country. However, your point is still valid, because it demonstrates where the money is in the country and where most M3 buyers tend to live...Edited by RobM77 on Friday 20th October 09:38
Different matter where I live in the Scottish Highlands though, where this:
.....and that third pedal:
...makes for a completely satisfying and totally involving driving experience.
However, if I had to return to live back down in Englandshire I'd almost certainly want an auto of some description.
How sad is that.
Edited by Depthhoar on Friday 20th October 18:16
Performance cars are not always about 0-60 times for many keen drivers.
The interaction between driver and acceleration and the added control element of a manual gearbox with a third pedal is something that should be offered on many more performance cars.
The manufacturer over-focus on pure 0-60 times and drivers becoming more lazy is not a good combination for the future of manuals.
With that in mind my next toy machine is going to be a manual gearbox, that is for sure.
If the modern day selection is not to offer one then I'll happily dial back time and get something from a decade ago.
The interaction between driver and acceleration and the added control element of a manual gearbox with a third pedal is something that should be offered on many more performance cars.
The manufacturer over-focus on pure 0-60 times and drivers becoming more lazy is not a good combination for the future of manuals.
With that in mind my next toy machine is going to be a manual gearbox, that is for sure.
If the modern day selection is not to offer one then I'll happily dial back time and get something from a decade ago.
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