Raw Milk

Author
Discussion

jinkster

Original Poster:

2,235 posts

155 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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My local farm has started selling raw milk and its delicious. Does anyone else drink this?

captain_cynic

11,873 posts

94 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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I thought it was illegal to sell raw milk for consumption... It should be as people die from drinking raw milk (Listeria and E.Coli are just two of the bacteria killed by pasteurisation).

mikal83

5,340 posts

251 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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captain_cynic said:
I thought it was illegal to sell raw milk for consumption... It should be as people die from drinking raw milk (Listeria and E.Coli are just two of the bacteria killed by pasteurisation).
Crikey, how the heck did ALL my family survive!

captain_cynic

11,873 posts

94 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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mikal83 said:
Crikey, how the heck did ALL my family survive!
Drinking unpasteurised milk, I've got no idea how you survived (or you were actually drinking pasteurised milk that was cold).

ZedLeg

12,278 posts

107 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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Yeah, raw milk is a dangerous fad. There's no good reason to not pasteurise milk.

mikal83

5,340 posts

251 months

Friday 9th November 2018
quotequote all
captain_cynic said:
mikal83 said:
Crikey, how the heck did ALL my family survive!
Drinking unpasteurised milk, I've got no idea how you survived (or you were actually drinking pasteurised milk that was cold).
Came out of the cows, dad put it into a small churn, brought it home for breakfast. As did my extended family on my mother in laws family and she had 22 first cousins, 25% dairy farmers! None dead!

ZedLeg

12,278 posts

107 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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Can't tell if you're just being obtuse or not.

It's fine if you're using it all the second it comes out of the cow, the danger is when someone buys a bottle that may already be a day old then leaves it in their fridge for a day. Plenty of time for some lethal bacteria to multiply.

Integroo

11,574 posts

84 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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The US Centers for Disease Control says improperly handled raw milk is responsible for nearly three times more hospitalizations than any other food-borne disease source, making it one of the world's most dangerous food products.

Kermit power

28,634 posts

212 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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ZedLeg said:
Yeah, raw milk is a dangerous fad. There's no good reason to not pasteurise milk.
There are plenty of very good reasons not to pasteurise milk. Take a look at this article as just one example amongst many. Specifically...


The article said:
Pasteurized and powdered milk have lower levels of nutrients compared with raw milk. Pasteurization destroys all microbes in milk, including lactic acid bacilli, which are beneficial to health, enhancing the gastrointestinal and immune systems. Additionally, according to Sally Fallon, a nutritional researcher and author of "Nourishing Traditions," pasteurization alters milk's amino acids; promotes rancidity of fatty acids; destroys vitamins A, D, C and B12; and reduces the minerals calcium, chloride, magnesium, phosphorus, sodium and sulphur, as well as many trace minerals. Furthermore, the heating in pasteurization destroys the enzymes in milk, which otherwise help the body assimilate nutrients, especially calcium. Often, some synthetic vitamins are added back to pasteurized milk, however, without milk's natural enzymes, they are difficult to digest.
Quite apart from that, it simply tastes infinitely better! Yes, you're right to suggest that it's not a great idea to have completely raw milk unless you're taking it straight out of a cow and drinking it there and then, but take a look at microfiltration as an alternative to pasteurisation. Quite a lot of French supermarkets sell this bottled in the chiller section, and it's always one of the first things I buy on holiday there. It's lovely, and it hasn't even killed me a little bit yet! smile

Integroo

11,574 posts

84 months

Friday 9th November 2018
quotequote all
Kermit power said:
ZedLeg said:
Yeah, raw milk is a dangerous fad. There's no good reason to not pasteurise milk.
There are plenty of very good reasons not to pasteurise milk. Take a look at this article as just one example amongst many. Specifically...


The article said:
Pasteurized and powdered milk have lower levels of nutrients compared with raw milk. Pasteurization destroys all microbes in milk, including lactic acid bacilli, which are beneficial to health, enhancing the gastrointestinal and immune systems. Additionally, according to Sally Fallon, a nutritional researcher and author of "Nourishing Traditions," pasteurization alters milk's amino acids; promotes rancidity of fatty acids; destroys vitamins A, D, C and B12; and reduces the minerals calcium, chloride, magnesium, phosphorus, sodium and sulphur, as well as many trace minerals. Furthermore, the heating in pasteurization destroys the enzymes in milk, which otherwise help the body assimilate nutrients, especially calcium. Often, some synthetic vitamins are added back to pasteurized milk, however, without milk's natural enzymes, they are difficult to digest.
Quite apart from that, it simply tastes infinitely better! Yes, you're right to suggest that it's not a great idea to have completely raw milk unless you're taking it straight out of a cow and drinking it there and then, but take a look at microfiltration as an alternative to pasteurisation. Quite a lot of French supermarkets sell this bottled in the chiller section, and it's always one of the first things I buy on holiday there. It's lovely, and it hasn't even killed me a little bit yet! smile
Sally Fallon appears to be a quack, criticised by the FDA: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1000142405270230437...

"Raw milk is inherently dangerous and should not be consumed by anyone, at any time, for any reason," says John Sheehan, director of the FDA's division of plant- and dairy-food safety."

Kermit power

28,634 posts

212 months

Friday 9th November 2018
quotequote all
Integroo said:
Kermit power said:
ZedLeg said:
Yeah, raw milk is a dangerous fad. There's no good reason to not pasteurise milk.
There are plenty of very good reasons not to pasteurise milk. Take a look at this article as just one example amongst many. Specifically...


The article said:
Pasteurized and powdered milk have lower levels of nutrients compared with raw milk. Pasteurization destroys all microbes in milk, including lactic acid bacilli, which are beneficial to health, enhancing the gastrointestinal and immune systems. Additionally, according to Sally Fallon, a nutritional researcher and author of "Nourishing Traditions," pasteurization alters milk's amino acids; promotes rancidity of fatty acids; destroys vitamins A, D, C and B12; and reduces the minerals calcium, chloride, magnesium, phosphorus, sodium and sulphur, as well as many trace minerals. Furthermore, the heating in pasteurization destroys the enzymes in milk, which otherwise help the body assimilate nutrients, especially calcium. Often, some synthetic vitamins are added back to pasteurized milk, however, without milk's natural enzymes, they are difficult to digest.
Quite apart from that, it simply tastes infinitely better! Yes, you're right to suggest that it's not a great idea to have completely raw milk unless you're taking it straight out of a cow and drinking it there and then, but take a look at microfiltration as an alternative to pasteurisation. Quite a lot of French supermarkets sell this bottled in the chiller section, and it's always one of the first things I buy on holiday there. It's lovely, and it hasn't even killed me a little bit yet! smile
Sally Fallon appears to be a quack, criticised by the FDA: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1000142405270230437...

"Raw milk is inherently dangerous and should not be consumed by anyone, at any time, for any reason," says John Sheehan, director of the FDA's division of plant- and dairy-food safety."
And yet French supermarkets sell loads of it every year without killing people, all under the guidance of the French ministry of agriculture. Given the FDA's penchant for allowing their farmers to pump all sorts of artificial crap into the food chain, I think I'll give more credence to the French.

Unfortunately, the FDA, as the largest Food Standards agency in the world, have the biggest megaphone when it comes to shouting about what should and shouldn't be allowed, regardless of whether their logic is actually sound or not.

Move on from the question of raw milk and look at cheese made with it. Go in to a local cheese shop anywhere in Europe and marvel at the vast range of excellent cheeses made with raw milk. Then go and try and find the same in the States, where the FDA bans all unpasteurised cheese aged for under 60 days. No decent Brie, Camembert, Reblochon, etc... At best, you'll get a poor imitation made with pasteurised milk because of the FDA's weird view, which isn't shared by any other developed nation that I know of.

captain_cynic

11,873 posts

94 months

Friday 9th November 2018
quotequote all
Kermit power said:
ZedLeg said:
Yeah, raw milk is a dangerous fad. There's no good reason to not pasteurise milk.
There are plenty of very good reasons not to pasteurise milk. Take a look at this article as just one example amongst many. Specifically...
I'm going to take the FDA's word over that. Scientific testing has shown no drop in nutrient content in pasteurised milk but a significant drop (as in elimination of) several dangerous pathogens.

https://www.fda.gov/food/resourcesforyou/consumers...

Livestrong is a pretty dodgy site all around. Used to push a lot of dubious crap. Not quite as bad as David Avocado Wolfe, but not that far off either.

captain_cynic

11,873 posts

94 months

Friday 9th November 2018
quotequote all
Kermit power said:
Unfortunately, the FDA, as the largest Food Standards agency in the world, have the biggest megaphone when it comes to shouting about what should and shouldn't be allowed, regardless of whether their logic is actually sound or not.
They're also a peer reviewed scientific organisation. You can go and look at their methods, results and tests and check their validity.

That's why they're so respected as an authority on health and nutritional matters. Livestrong does not even bother doing their own experimentation, let alone submits it for peer review.

So conspiracy theories do not help you.

Raw milk is dangerous to consume, especially for children who do not have fully grown immune systems.

ZedLeg

12,278 posts

107 months

Friday 9th November 2018
quotequote all
Kermit power said:
Move on from the question of raw milk and look at cheese made with it. Go in to a local cheese shop anywhere in Europe and marvel at the vast range of excellent cheeses made with raw milk. Then go and try and find the same in the States, where the FDA bans all unpasteurised cheese aged for under 60 days. No decent Brie, Camembert, Reblochon, etc... At best, you'll get a poor imitation made with pasteurised milk because of the FDA's weird view, which isn't shared by any other developed nation that I know of.
wikipedia said:
Raw-milk cheeses make up about 18 percent of France's total cheese production, and are considered far superior to cheeses made from pasteurised milk.[27] Many French cuisine traditionalists consider pasteurized cheeses almost a sacrilege. Many traditional French cheeses have solely been made from raw milk for hundreds of years.[28] Unpasteurised cheese in France is the major source of staphylococcal food poisoning.[29][30]
laugh

Kermit power

28,634 posts

212 months

Friday 9th November 2018
quotequote all
captain_cynic said:
Kermit power said:
Unfortunately, the FDA, as the largest Food Standards agency in the world, have the biggest megaphone when it comes to shouting about what should and shouldn't be allowed, regardless of whether their logic is actually sound or not.
They're also a peer reviewed scientific organisation. You can go and look at their methods, results and tests and check their validity.

That's why they're so respected as an authority on health and nutritional matters. Livestrong does not even bother doing their own experimentation, let alone submits it for peer review.

So conspiracy theories do not help you.

Raw milk is dangerous to consume, especially for children who do not have fully grown immune systems.
So if they're so respected, why aren't we, the French, the Germans and every other Western nation banning unpasteurised cheeses? Why are they so out of step with everywhere else over this issue?

Why, also, does the FDA allow synthetic growth hormones in cattle, whereas pretty much every other developed nation has banned them?

Why does the FDA allow arsenic-based animal feed additives (which increase growth rate and give the meat a pinker, "fresher" appearance) despite the rest of the Western world banning them?

Why does the FDA still allow chicken litter to be fed to cattle - something that was banned in Europe in response to Mad Cow disease?

Why does the FDA allow the use of routine prophylactic antibiotics in animal rearing, when it has been banned elsewhere? After all, it's not as though we've got a problem with antibiotic resistance, is it!

You're the Captain Cynic around here, but I'm going to reserve the right to be thoroughly cynical about the FDA and their apparent propensity to base their regulations to a large extent on the desires of the US agri-business lobbies.

Kermit power

28,634 posts

212 months

Friday 9th November 2018
quotequote all
ZedLeg said:
Kermit power said:
Move on from the question of raw milk and look at cheese made with it. Go in to a local cheese shop anywhere in Europe and marvel at the vast range of excellent cheeses made with raw milk. Then go and try and find the same in the States, where the FDA bans all unpasteurised cheese aged for under 60 days. No decent Brie, Camembert, Reblochon, etc... At best, you'll get a poor imitation made with pasteurised milk because of the FDA's weird view, which isn't shared by any other developed nation that I know of.
wikipedia said:
Raw-milk cheeses make up about 18 percent of France's total cheese production, and are considered far superior to cheeses made from pasteurised milk.[27] Many French cuisine traditionalists consider pasteurized cheeses almost a sacrilege. Many traditional French cheeses have solely been made from raw milk for hundreds of years.[28] Unpasteurised cheese in France is the major source of staphylococcal food poisoning.[29][30]
laugh
Staph food poisoning is extremely rarely something to be worried about at the worst of times, and it's hardly widely prevalent anyway. Of course, that's not an advantageous position for the US dairy industry though, hence the remaining FDA ban.

Mr Gearchange

5,892 posts

205 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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Raw milk isn't something I'm going to go and drink for the same reason I wouldn't go and drink untreated water.

It makes me laugh to listen to people (mainly my wife's idiot friends) harping on about 'natural' stuff like it's somehow benign. Nature isn't your friend, nature wants 5 of your 7 kids dead before they are 2 and you dead by 30 - anything better than that is purely down to science and technological advancement. At what point did the average layperson decide they know more than trained scientists?

These days, and Facebook is largely responsible for most of it, it seems that increasingly people believe that their ignorance is as valuable as someone else's facts. You are entitled to your own idiot opinion but you aren't entitled to your own facts. The problem is that social medial give a platform for anyone to talk total and utter codst - see David Avocado Wolfe, The Food Babe and Deepak Chopra for examples of how charlatans make a fking fortune selling snake oil to morons who are too fking stupid to use google.

The world is full of self appointed experts who harp on how good Organic foods is, how GMO's are dangerous, how vaccines give you autism and how homeopathy and essential oils treat all manner of ills.

I have a theory that social media is a device for selective population control by spreading potentially lethal misinformation that only stupid people would follow.

mikal83

5,340 posts

251 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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you dont drink untreated water...……...you need to get a life

ZedLeg

12,278 posts

107 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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Mikal will be back in a minute to tell us how good chicken tartare is.

inabox

291 posts

190 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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I much prefer raw milk... HOWEVER; I live on a dairy farm and it is consumed the same day, usually within a few hours. There's no good reason to trust the public with raw milk, you're just asking for people to put it in the fridge