Left turn lane accident - who exactly is to blame?

[DJames93]

Hi, first post here. I've been signed up for a while with the intention to use the boards to discuss driving and cars and such but never got round to posting,
so I thought I would get some opinions on a very near miss I had today. Have a look at this image of the location where this happened.



As I've highlighted the two lanes are respectively left turn only and straight on. Left lane is marked at 3 different point by arrows accompanied by painted words 'TURN LEFT' The road going straight on staggers slightly to accomodate for the opposite filter lane as you can probably see requiring slight alteration of course.

So I am going straight on, from the correct lane which is indicating straight from painted arrows. Driver B is in the left turn lane going straight in an attempt to claw back a few seconds during the busy evening commute. Traffic is moving and one or two cars have already passed him as the lights change, then comes me, approacing the rear quarter of B at a greater speed. I am already edging left slightly to remain in lane, and I can see the other driver drifting out to the right very slightly. I blow the horn and they don't stop at first but seem to get the message when they are right in the middle of the left lane on the adjacent 'melling rd' and go hard on the brakes. I could have stopped and allowed them out but didn't as traffic was busy behind, and.. well... I surely had right of way? My work colleague who I was giving a lift thinks maybe it was all a bit daft.

So my question is, lets say they were trying to force their way out and forewards, and I hit their o/s doors or front, despite being able to do an emergency stop and prevent it all, who would be to blame? 50/50 as I could have prevented it by taking further action? The other driver as they were in the wrong lane and not giving way? Me entirely?

How about if I was to go into their rear? however that would probably require them to swing out of lane by a considerable amount.

Anyhow I am thinking of getting a dash cam very soon. The driver looked very angry and was waving their arms everywhere. I get the idea they would never have accepted any blame if anything was to happen and it that seems to be a common thing on the roads. In the end they decided to turn left after traffic built up behind them all blowing horns.

cheers

Edited by DJames93 on Friday 19th January 18:24

Edited by DJames93 on Friday 19th January 18:27

[paintman]

Whilst you had the ROW and were in the right it all becomes academic when sorting out the damage to your car.

Regard everyone else as an idiot & expect them to do something stupid & you won't be surprised when they do.

If somebody wants to drive like a tt I'd rather they were in front of me than behind.

I agree entirely with your passenger.

[vikingaero]

The main priority at the scene of an accident if you don't have a dashcam isn't safety! It's stopping someone who may be your witness. Most people think low level shunt, everyone's breathing and drive off.

[TooMany2cvs]

DJames93 said:

I blow the horn and they don't stop at first but seem to get the message when they are right in the middle of the left lane on the adjacent 'melling rd' and go hard on the brakes. I could have stopped and allowed them out but didn't as traffic was busy behind, and.. well... I surely had right of way?

50/50 as I could have prevented it by taking further action

*ding*

[DJames93]

paintman said:

Whilst you had the ROW and were in the right it all becomes academic when sorting out the damage to your car.

Regard everyone else as an idiot & expect them to do something stupid & you won't be surprised when they do.

If somebody wants to drive like a tt I'd rather they were in front of me than behind.

I agree entirely with your passenger.

Yes, I understand what you are saying. At the time after just leaving work I just wasn't giving them the courtesy... if I was in a bit of a better mood maybe but my thought process what pretty much 'well if everyone else has to wait in traffic to get where they need to be why should you not'. If you were in the same situation would you just allow them out and be done with it?

TooMany2cvs said:

DJames93 said:

I blow the horn and they don't stop at first but seem to get the message when they are right in the middle of the left lane on the adjacent 'melling rd' and go hard on the brakes. I could have stopped and allowed them out but didn't as traffic was busy behind, and.. well... I surely had right of way?

50/50 as I could have prevented it by taking further action

*ding*

I get that feeling but slightly doubt it, what if I felt their intention was to actually turn left, given the lane markings, even if it was a bit late?

[Pothole]

DJames93 said:

Hi, first post here. I've been signed up for a while with the intention to use the boards to discuss driving and cars and such but never got round to posting,
so I thought I would get some opinions on a very near miss I had today. Have a look at this image of the location where this happened.



As I've highlighted the two lanes are respectively left turn only and straight on. Left lane is marked at 3 different point by arrows accompanied by painted words 'TURN LEFT' The road going straight on staggers slightly to accomodate for the opposite filter lane as you can probably see requiring slight alteration of course.

So I am going straight on, from the correct lane which is indicating straight from painted arrows. Driver B is in the left turn lane going straight in an attempt to claw back a few seconds during the busy evening commute. Traffic is moving and one or two cars have already passed him as the lights change, then comes me, approacing the rear quarter of B at a greater speed. I am already edging left slightly to remain in lane, and I can see the other driver drifting out to the right very slightly. I blow the horn and they don't stop at first but seem to get the message when they are right in the middle of the left lane on the adjacent 'melling rd' and go hard on the brakes. I could have stopped and allowed them out but didn't as traffic was busy behind, and.. well... I surely had right of way? My work colleague who I was giving a lift thinks maybe it was all a bit daft.

So my question is, lets say they were trying to force their way out and forewards, and I hit their o/s doors or front, despite being able to do an emergency stop and prevent it all, who would be to blame? 50/50 as I could have prevented it by taking further action? The other driver as they were in the wrong lane and not giving way? Me entirely?

How about if I was to go into their rear? however that would probably require them to swing out of lane by a considerable amount.

Anyhow I am thinking of getting a dash cam very soon. The driver looked very angry and was waving their arms everywhere. I get the idea they would never have accepted any blame if anything was to happen and it that seems to be a common thing on the roads. In the end they decided to turn left after traffic built up behind them all blowing horns.

cheers

Edited by DJames93 on Friday 19th January 18:24

Edited by DJames93 on Friday 19th January 18:27

112.The horn.
Use only while your vehicle is moving and you need to warn other road users
of your presence.
Never sound your horn aggressively.

He knew you were there.

Ahem.

[DJames93]

Pothole said:

112.The horn.
Use only while your vehicle is moving and you need to warn other road users
of your presence.
Never sound your horn aggressively.

He knew you were there.

Ahem.

Not necessarily the case. I was strarting to approach beside when I seen what was happening and did not even know if he knew I was there. I used the horn to alert the driver as he may not have seen traffic passing in the through lane.

[Hilts]

paintman said:

Whilst you had the ROW and were in the right it all becomes academic when sorting out the damage to your car.

Regard everyone else as an idiot & expect them to do something stupid & you won't be surprised when they do.

If somebody wants to drive like a tt I'd rather they were in front of me than behind.

This is sage advice.

Unless you're driving a shed that you care tuppence about, even though you know you're right let it go.

[cmaguire]

DJames93 said:

Yes, I understand what you are saying. At the time after just leaving work I just wasn't giving them the courtesy... if I was in a bit of a better mood maybe but my thought process what pretty much 'well if everyone else has to wait in traffic to get where they need to be why should you not'. If you were in the same situation would you just allow them out and be done with it?

Yes, I would have let them out although mildly irritated by their queue-jumping (it might be that they always intended to go straight on but inadvertently ended up in the left lane and it was too busy in your lane to move when they realised)
In any event, at the point you came into conflict they were the vehicle in front. To avoid disrupting the flow of traffic you should just have bitten your tongue and allowed the merge.
Bit of ego here by the looks of it.

[Gavia]

Arrows on the road and writing too are not compulsory to follow, they are advisory only. If you drove into the back of him you’d be completely at fault. Side to side somewhere between you being fully at fault and 50/50.

My advice would be to stop acting like you are on the road. Letting him in would’ve only cost you a few seconds in your commute too.

[TonyTony]

I would make a guess it would most likely go 50/50, if they keep driving for a gap that you are filling and nobody stops, you will both just end up driving into each other.

Speaking of road rage I was on the way home in rush hour earlier, merged from a slip lane and I guess the car behind me was attempting to not let the next guy merge.

The car pushed in behind me, as I drove off he just planted his brakes and sat there holding up the whole que of rush hour traffic for a good 20-30 seconds or more

[MitchT]

If you can see that the driver in the "wrong" lane is trying to merge and it takes an effort on your part to stop them, instead try lifting and giving them room to get on with it. Maybe they're an impatient tt trying to jump the queue, or maybe they just made a mistake. Either way, life's a happier place to be if you chill out and give other people plenty of space to be stupid, or human, or whatever. NB. I say this as someone who also used to be an angry bd!

[Eddieslofart]

Hmmm, ignoramous trys to barge in, same as he does every time at that junction. This time, op fekks him up. Hopefully, ignor learns lesson.

Well done op.

[Riley Blue]

DJames93 said:

So my question is, lets say they were trying to force their way out and forewards, and I hit their o/s doors or front, despite being able to do an emergency stop and prevent it all, who would be to blame? 50/50 as I could have prevented it by taking further action? The other driver as they were in the wrong lane and not giving way? Me entirely?

Are you seriously thinking that you wouldn't be held responsible if you could have prevented an accident by braking but didn't? Just because another driver does something that inconveniences you doesn't mean you can hit him with impunity.

[vonhosen]

Q. Who has culpability?

A. Anybody who could reasonably have avoided the collision & didn't, it'll just be insurance companies then sorting out what degree of percentages to apportion.

[TooMany2cvs]

DJames93 said:

At the time after just leaving work I just wasn't giving them the courtesy... if I was in a bit of a better mood maybe but my thought process what pretty much 'well if everyone else has to wait in traffic to get where they need to be why should you not'.

So it wasn't just you failing to take reasonably-predictable avoiding action, but actively escalating a possible situation...

DJames93 said:

If you were in the same situation would you just allow them out and be done with it?

Play pushy-shovey, sometimes it bites.

DJames93 said:

TooMany2cvs said:

DJames93 said:

I blow the horn and they don't stop at first but seem to get the message when they are right in the middle of the left lane on the adjacent 'melling rd' and go hard on the brakes. I could have stopped and allowed them out but didn't as traffic was busy behind, and.. well... I surely had right of way?

50/50 as I could have prevented it by taking further action

*ding*

I get that feeling but slightly doubt it, what if I felt their intention was to actually turn left, given the lane markings, even if it was a bit late?

You give 'em the time and space to sort their wuckfittery out. What would it have "cost" you? Nothing whatsoever. What is it now costing you...?

[Red Devil]

Gavia said:

Arrows on the road and writing too are not compulsory to follow, they are advisory only.

In this case, the Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 5 page 82 disagrees with you.
A diagram 1038 marking is advisory but the addition of TURN LEFT converts it to a diagram 1036.1 marking: the latter is regulatory.

MANDATORY TURNS
13.6 Lane arrows supplemented with the legend TURN LEFT (see figure 13-3), TURN RIGHT and AHEAD ONLY are prescribed as diagrams 1036.1, 1036.2 and 1037.1 respectively.
These versions may be used only where they indicate the effect of a statutory prohibition (direction 7).

Confirmed by TSRGD 2016 Schedule 9 Part 6 item 19 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedu...

[TooMany2cvs]

Red Devil said:

These versions may be used only where they indicate the effect of a statutory prohibition (direction 7).

Which isn't the case here, since there are at least two legitimate options at the junction.

[Hol]

Morally you were in the right.

However, idiots drive amongst us as they know two things,

1. They can lie and make the after situation report sound as if it's 50% your fault, even though as in this case it was always their intention to break the rules.
2. Society as a whole is now in a place where 'right and wrong' are irrelevant, and both of you will be seen as culpable for the accident. As both of you could have avoided it.


Personally, I think CCTV cameras should be used to identify and fine the people obviously who do this repeatedly at the same junctions (three times on camera should be enough) It would cut road rage as it would reduce the number of incidents.

Edited by Hol on Saturday 20th January 09:18

[Crackie]

cmaguire said:

DJames93 said:

Yes, I understand what you are saying. At the time after just leaving work I just wasn't giving them the courtesy... if I was in a bit of a better mood maybe but my thought process what pretty much 'well if everyone else has to wait in traffic to get where they need to be why should you not'. If you were in the same situation would you just allow them out and be done with it?

Yes, I would have let them out although mildly irritated by their queue-jumping (it might be that they always intended to go straight on but inadvertently ended up in the left lane and it was too busy in your lane to move when they realised)
In any event, at the point you came into conflict they were the vehicle in front. To avoid disrupting the flow of traffic you should just have bitten your tongue and allowed the merge.
Bit of ego here by the looks of it.

/\/\/\ this.

The guy in the LH was in the wrong lane ( possibly deliberately, possibly an innocent error ). In either case it was poor driving by them; you not letting them in however, when you had oportunity to, wasn't great either.

We are competitive creatures by nature but there's no need to compete with crap drivers; just makes you one yourself.