Gibson about to go bust.
Discussion
A quick browse on glass door suggests it's a terrible place to work, senior staff on a merry go round & a micro managing owner way out of his depth. If it does go, it won't disappear. Far too iconic a brand to just evaporate. The risk would be it goes to new owners with no sense of the brand & ship all the production to some sausage factory in Taiwan.
That fate happened to Vox & at one point, Fender were subbing production of everything to Japan in the mid eighties when they found themselves without a factory. A happy outcome is by no means a certainty.
That fate happened to Vox & at one point, Fender were subbing production of everything to Japan in the mid eighties when they found themselves without a factory. A happy outcome is by no means a certainty.
Maybe on the quality side but this is all getting very ahead of myself. If they did end up being made for $15 in Taipei, I doubt there'd be a particularly big upswing in Nashville Gibsons. Sales are $1bn a year, they're not exactly in short supply.
One thing I do know, when Fender were prepping their short lived IPO, the filing of the documents revealed their return on capital to be about 3%. There is no money to be made making guitars seemingly. The whole thing relies on volume & peripheral products. Innovation is an apparent cul de sac, everyone wants 50's Teles & Strats, newer designs rarely get anywhere. I can't think of another consumer industry where the nearly all the demand is centred on 60+ year old designs with a few revisions thrown in from time to time.
One thing I do know, when Fender were prepping their short lived IPO, the filing of the documents revealed their return on capital to be about 3%. There is no money to be made making guitars seemingly. The whole thing relies on volume & peripheral products. Innovation is an apparent cul de sac, everyone wants 50's Teles & Strats, newer designs rarely get anywhere. I can't think of another consumer industry where the nearly all the demand is centred on 60+ year old designs with a few revisions thrown in from time to time.
When I was working in the music trade, the shop I worked at enquired about getting some Epiphones in. Gibson wouldn't even entertain the thought without a full Gibson dealership, complete with extortionate stocking demands and a refit of the shop to their specification. Their quarterly requirements for stock movement was absolutely hideous, to the extent it was pursued no further, and this attitude spread as far Gibson stockists who couldn't or wouldn't stomach the draconian terms of business and subsequently dropped the brand. This must have had an impact on business in the UK.
Gibson would do well to replicate Rickenbacker's business model. They sell every guitar they make. Without getting all 'Management Consultant-y': do one thing, and do it well. Reinvigorate the classic 50's / 60's model lines - make them historically accurate. Downsize your workforce, downsize your supply chain, stop persecuting small bricks and mortar retailers and buy back some exclusivity. Kill the custom shop off except for one-off builds for household names, which you can outsource.
There's plenty of intrinsic value in the brand, but Joe Average Guitarist doesn't need or want a stripy LP with automatic tuners.
I, for one, would particularly appreciate a period-correct SG Junior.
There's plenty of intrinsic value in the brand, but Joe Average Guitarist doesn't need or want a stripy LP with automatic tuners.
I, for one, would particularly appreciate a period-correct SG Junior.
mattnovak said:
I, for one, would particularly appreciate a period-correct SG Junior.
What's wrong with the SG Junior currently on sale? Other than the price that is...I've got a few Gibson guitars, well thirteen to be exact, and the common denominator was that I bought them all bar one second hand, and even then the price of some of them has been hidden from Our Lass. An SG Junior is a no frills guitar, with the most basic components and finish, yet it's still just short of twelve hundred quid. Compared to the equivalent Gordon Smith at half the price I know where my money would be going...
BilderBurger said:
Maybe on the quality side but this is all getting very ahead of myself. If they did end up being made for $15 in Taipei, I doubt there'd be a particularly big upswing in Nashville Gibsons. Sales are $1bn a year, they're not exactly in short supply.
One thing I do know, when Fender were prepping their short lived IPO, the filing of the documents revealed their return on capital to be about 3%. There is no money to be made making guitars seemingly. The whole thing relies on volume & peripheral products. Innovation is an apparent cul de sac, everyone wants 50's Teles & Strats, newer designs rarely get anywhere. I can't think of another consumer industry where the nearly all the demand is centred on 60+ year old designs with a few revisions thrown in from time to time.
I’m not sure that is right,I think one of Gibson’s biggest issue has been the rise of PRS guitars ,which are relatively young .One thing I do know, when Fender were prepping their short lived IPO, the filing of the documents revealed their return on capital to be about 3%. There is no money to be made making guitars seemingly. The whole thing relies on volume & peripheral products. Innovation is an apparent cul de sac, everyone wants 50's Teles & Strats, newer designs rarely get anywhere. I can't think of another consumer industry where the nearly all the demand is centred on 60+ year old designs with a few revisions thrown in from time to time.
Look how many prs players there are now compared to say 15 years ago.
Overpriced, poor QC, horrible business model, poorly managed...
They're bringing out an ultra modern Flying V for NAMM, yet they can't get the frets level on a new £2600 Les Paul Standard.
Hopefully they do go under, get reorganised, then appear with better focus on QC, a bigger dealer network and less brand diversification.
They're bringing out an ultra modern Flying V for NAMM, yet they can't get the frets level on a new £2600 Les Paul Standard.
Hopefully they do go under, get reorganised, then appear with better focus on QC, a bigger dealer network and less brand diversification.
BRISTOL86 said:
Apparently they demanded 70% of the entire wall in PMT Bristol and were told to do one. Not sure if it’s all PMTs but there’s not a single Gibson on the wall in Bristol.
I went in there with My son before Christmas looking at Epiphones, and inquired about availability of other models and was told they were currently having a dispute with Gibson over their terms, I went in there again about a month ago and like you say, not a Gibson or Epiphone to be seen 
I’ve only been playing about 14 months and the thing that puts me off them mostly is price, and what I’ve heard other people say about the quality, you can get a US standard Strat new for under £1k, a professional for under £1.5k, a lot of people seem to think the quality is better.
What’s a proper Les Paul new? £3k ish, I appreciate them and how they sound but they don’t really appeal to me, or a lot of other people so it seems.
What’s a proper Les Paul new? £3k ish, I appreciate them and how they sound but they don’t really appeal to me, or a lot of other people so it seems.
I don't think PMT are Gibson resellers anymore (or so I hear from a friend in the trade).
I'm very happy with my 2013 LP standard although the QC was not brilliant now I've spent a fortune on having it tweaked it is an epic guitar.
My son has a 2016 1950's lp tribute and straight out of the box it is a really good instrument and was less than £700 new. However his new Ibanez is a much better guitar and was under a grand (it I'm honest it is a much better guitar than my LP).
I think the issue is over dilution of each model. Just build great les pauls, give us a couple of price points but stop arsing about and get the quality and price right. I don't care where they are made.
I'm very happy with my 2013 LP standard although the QC was not brilliant now I've spent a fortune on having it tweaked it is an epic guitar.
My son has a 2016 1950's lp tribute and straight out of the box it is a really good instrument and was less than £700 new. However his new Ibanez is a much better guitar and was under a grand (it I'm honest it is a much better guitar than my LP).
I think the issue is over dilution of each model. Just build great les pauls, give us a couple of price points but stop arsing about and get the quality and price right. I don't care where they are made.
singlecoil said:
Making stuff in the States (or the UK for that matter) is very expensive compared to far east, and not enough people care enough to pay the extra. Dear as Gibsons are it's still not enough to make a healthy business.
PRS are comparatively as expensive, maybe more so. They're doing ok... I suspect that is because if you bought a PRS (a £400 SE or a £3500 McCarty) you wouldn't find rough fret ends and damaged finishes.Gibson are like the Lada or Morris Motors of the music world, old-fashioned crap that some people have fond memories of and so they keep selling, but apparently not sewlling enough enough these days. Perhaps the world is waking up and realising that time has moved on and QC is important if you want to sell for such high prices.
It still makes me laugh when I remember that they actually showed broken guitars on their own website, they obviously don't think much of their customers
https://www.gearnews.com/gibson-les-paul-tradition...
It still makes me laugh when I remember that they actually showed broken guitars on their own website, they obviously don't think much of their customers
https://www.gearnews.com/gibson-les-paul-tradition...
I just posted this on another guitar forum so may as well repeat it here.
There are still large numbers of young people taking up the guitar, but the vast majority give up after about 18 months when they realise how much time and effort they will need to invest before they become even half decent. On the other hand downloading a drum track and assorted other noises off the internet, and putting what passes for singing these days over the top of it, takes no effort whatsoever and is exactly what all the other young people want to listen to anyway.
My explanation for Gibson's problems is as follows:
1 - the above; kids not learning guitars due to the work involved, and today's so-called 'music' not needing them.
2 - Gibson's insistence on trying to sell new models when all the guitar buyers want (don't forget, we're all old gits now) is guitars that are exactly like the old ones.
Gibson need to have a range of reasonably accurate replicas of their 50s/50s/70s models (like Fender have done with their American Original Series) such as Les Pauls, 335s, SGs, Firebirds, Vs, etc, at a reasonable price point. Also a range of budget guitars for beginners so that people can start on a Gibson, then they will be more likely to stay with them when they feel ready to upgrade.
Someone on another forum has suggested that Gibson should 'do a Monkees', - in other words, sponsor a band of young people, playing the sort of crap today's youth insist on listening to, but using Gibson guitars to do it. You never know, it could work.
There are still large numbers of young people taking up the guitar, but the vast majority give up after about 18 months when they realise how much time and effort they will need to invest before they become even half decent. On the other hand downloading a drum track and assorted other noises off the internet, and putting what passes for singing these days over the top of it, takes no effort whatsoever and is exactly what all the other young people want to listen to anyway.
My explanation for Gibson's problems is as follows:
1 - the above; kids not learning guitars due to the work involved, and today's so-called 'music' not needing them.
2 - Gibson's insistence on trying to sell new models when all the guitar buyers want (don't forget, we're all old gits now) is guitars that are exactly like the old ones.
Gibson need to have a range of reasonably accurate replicas of their 50s/50s/70s models (like Fender have done with their American Original Series) such as Les Pauls, 335s, SGs, Firebirds, Vs, etc, at a reasonable price point. Also a range of budget guitars for beginners so that people can start on a Gibson, then they will be more likely to stay with them when they feel ready to upgrade.
Someone on another forum has suggested that Gibson should 'do a Monkees', - in other words, sponsor a band of young people, playing the sort of crap today's youth insist on listening to, but using Gibson guitars to do it. You never know, it could work.
Edited by Evangelion on Sunday 25th February 23:59
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