Discussion
Howard explains it all:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQS91wVdvYc&t=...
(Warning! It gets a bit technical in places.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQS91wVdvYc&t=...
(Warning! It gets a bit technical in places.)
singlecoil said:
I didn't say I didn't like it. How on earth could I not like it. I don't just like it, I love it. But Revolver is even better.
We shall agree to differ on that one - but Revolver is certainly the first album where they were let off the leash, so to speak. 'Tomorrow never knows' is sublime. Ringo's drumming! 
cherryowen said:
Just to add my 2PW into the mix, I'm not (and never have been) a "fan" of Beatles tunes. I can't explain why; I knew they were well crafted songs played to the best of their ability, and their ability playing their instruments is somewhat under-rated I think. McCartney's bass lines are very accomplished and his acoustic work on "Blackbird" equally so.
However, over the last few months I've been getting into music theory to try and spice up my guitar playing. A common theme is, "The Beatles did this quite commonly" with regard to musical thinking. Much of it is rooted in classical music, believe it or not.
One example is called a Plagal Chord Shift (!!!). I'd never heard of it until a few months ago. Say you're playing in the key of A major; a popular chord progression would be A / D/ E with each chord being played for one measure of four bars in 4/4 time. So it goes A (four beats per bar), D (four beat per bar), E (same beats), back to D (same beats) resolving back to the "root" chord of A. Now, A, D and E together sound very jolly and "happy" so to tone the "happiness" down what The Beatles would often do is - in bar 3 - play two beats of D major, then two beats of D minor before resolving back to A major.
Another one they did was a "Mediant Third" where the first chord would be - say- A major, but the next chord would be a minor third i.e. C minor. So the tune starts of "happy" then immediately sounds "forlorn" so to speak.
Very clever to apply this sort of stuff into popular music.
I’ve never heard of a plagal chord shift but there is a plagal cadence which is IV to I, or based in A the last two chord of the phrase would be D to A (amen cadence).However, over the last few months I've been getting into music theory to try and spice up my guitar playing. A common theme is, "The Beatles did this quite commonly" with regard to musical thinking. Much of it is rooted in classical music, believe it or not.
One example is called a Plagal Chord Shift (!!!). I'd never heard of it until a few months ago. Say you're playing in the key of A major; a popular chord progression would be A / D/ E with each chord being played for one measure of four bars in 4/4 time. So it goes A (four beats per bar), D (four beat per bar), E (same beats), back to D (same beats) resolving back to the "root" chord of A. Now, A, D and E together sound very jolly and "happy" so to tone the "happiness" down what The Beatles would often do is - in bar 3 - play two beats of D major, then two beats of D minor before resolving back to A major.
Another one they did was a "Mediant Third" where the first chord would be - say- A major, but the next chord would be a minor third i.e. C minor. So the tune starts of "happy" then immediately sounds "forlorn" so to speak.
Very clever to apply this sort of stuff into popular music.
You’re right about A, D and E being rooted in classical harmony, think A being chord I, D IV and E V, these are the primary chords and pretty much most popular music are rooted around these three, they are major chords and use all the notes of the major scale you add using. Chord II and III (mediant) and VI are minor.
Eleanor Rigby has some nice interesting chord progressions.
When he bought a new album my friend Tim would invite us back after cadets on a Friday night to his parents' house to listen to it. The two that stick in my mind are the White Album and Abbey Road. The White Album because we listened to it in silence all the way through, twice. I'm fairly sure I will never understand Number 9 but other than that I love it end to end. The first time we heard Abbey Road, the way I Want You (she's so heavy) cuts off at the end of side one is a piece of theatre that is only available on vinyl. On a CD it goes straight into Here Comes The Sun. On vinyl there was a stunned silence followed eventually by Tim getting up to check the record was okay and flip it over to hear side 2.
The other Friday night albums of note were Woodstock provided by Doug at his parent's house and Chicago Transit Authority by me at mine.
- Stop Press - The White Album is the answer to a question on Pointless -
A fairly random piece of Beatles music to listen out for is the first two minutes of Flying from Magical Mystery Tour. Brilliant. And one of the few tracks credited to all four Beatles.
The other Friday night albums of note were Woodstock provided by Doug at his parent's house and Chicago Transit Authority by me at mine.
- Stop Press - The White Album is the answer to a question on Pointless -
A fairly random piece of Beatles music to listen out for is the first two minutes of Flying from Magical Mystery Tour. Brilliant. And one of the few tracks credited to all four Beatles.
DickyC said:
When he bought a new album my friend Tim would invite us back after cadets on a Friday night to his parents' house to listen to it. The two that stick in my mind are the White Album and Abbey Road. The White Album because we listened to it in silence all the way through, twice. I'm fairly sure I will never understand Number 9 but other than that I love it end to end. The first time we heard Abbey Road, the way I Want You (she's so heavy) cuts off at the end of side one is a piece of theatre that is only available on vinyl. On a CD it goes straight into Here Comes The Sun. On vinyl there was a stunned silence followed eventually by Tim getting up to check the record was okay and flip it over to hear side 2.
The other Friday night albums of note were Woodstock provided by Doug at his parent's house and Chicago Transit Authority by me at mine.
- Stop Press - The White Album is the answer to a question on Pointless -
A fairly random piece of Beatles music to listen out for is the first two minutes of Flying from Magical Mystery Tour. Brilliant. And one of the few tracks credited to all four Beatles.
I took the first album 'Please Please Me' to school just to let everybody know I had it.The other Friday night albums of note were Woodstock provided by Doug at his parent's house and Chicago Transit Authority by me at mine.
- Stop Press - The White Album is the answer to a question on Pointless -
A fairly random piece of Beatles music to listen out for is the first two minutes of Flying from Magical Mystery Tour. Brilliant. And one of the few tracks credited to all four Beatles.
DickyC said:
I've always thought McCartney's music benefited from fear of Lennon's derision.
I thought his post Beatles stuff was that way - is that what you meant? He was good solo but think he preferred being in a band. Wings made some great music. Band on the run, epic.Harrison's 'all things must pass' must have come as a shock to John and Paul, an outstanding body of work.
Simes205 said:
cherryowen said:
Just to add my 2PW into the mix, I'm not (and never have been) a "fan" of Beatles tunes. I can't explain why; I knew they were well crafted songs played to the best of their ability, and their ability playing their instruments is somewhat under-rated I think. McCartney's bass lines are very accomplished and his acoustic work on "Blackbird" equally so.
However, over the last few months I've been getting into music theory to try and spice up my guitar playing. A common theme is, "The Beatles did this quite commonly" with regard to musical thinking. Much of it is rooted in classical music, believe it or not.
One example is called a Plagal Chord Shift (!!!). I'd never heard of it until a few months ago. Say you're playing in the key of A major; a popular chord progression would be A / D/ E with each chord being played for one measure of four bars in 4/4 time. So it goes A (four beats per bar), D (four beat per bar), E (same beats), back to D (same beats) resolving back to the "root" chord of A. Now, A, D and E together sound very jolly and "happy" so to tone the "happiness" down what The Beatles would often do is - in bar 3 - play two beats of D major, then two beats of D minor before resolving back to A major.
Another one they did was a "Mediant Third" where the first chord would be - say- A major, but the next chord would be a minor third i.e. C minor. So the tune starts of "happy" then immediately sounds "forlorn" so to speak.
Very clever to apply this sort of stuff into popular music.
I’ve never heard of a plagal chord shift but there is a plagal cadence which is IV to I, or based in A the last two chord of the phrase would be D to A (amen cadence).However, over the last few months I've been getting into music theory to try and spice up my guitar playing. A common theme is, "The Beatles did this quite commonly" with regard to musical thinking. Much of it is rooted in classical music, believe it or not.
One example is called a Plagal Chord Shift (!!!). I'd never heard of it until a few months ago. Say you're playing in the key of A major; a popular chord progression would be A / D/ E with each chord being played for one measure of four bars in 4/4 time. So it goes A (four beats per bar), D (four beat per bar), E (same beats), back to D (same beats) resolving back to the "root" chord of A. Now, A, D and E together sound very jolly and "happy" so to tone the "happiness" down what The Beatles would often do is - in bar 3 - play two beats of D major, then two beats of D minor before resolving back to A major.
Another one they did was a "Mediant Third" where the first chord would be - say- A major, but the next chord would be a minor third i.e. C minor. So the tune starts of "happy" then immediately sounds "forlorn" so to speak.
Very clever to apply this sort of stuff into popular music.
You’re right about A, D and E being rooted in classical harmony, think A being chord I, D IV and E V, these are the primary chords and pretty much most popular music are rooted around these three, they are major chords and use all the notes of the major scale you add using. Chord II and III (mediant) and VI are minor.
Eleanor Rigby has some nice interesting chord progressions.
O/T : You mention the I / IV / V chord progression as the basis of popular music. These days, I discovered recently, a huge amount of chart tunes use a combination of I / IV / V / vi (so, in the key of C major it's C / F / G / Am) . Easy. The interesting stuff is writing in a minor key, especially harmonic minor.
Correct, I didn’t want to go there really but you’re right.
Chord VI is the relative minor to the tonic.
So in C, A is the relative minor, in F D is the relative minor etc.
Not only are those 4 chords used but on many occasions even in the same order!
https://youtu.be/oOlDewpCfZQ
Note: Harmonic minor for chordal progressions and melodic minor for the melody.
The natural minor is also the aeolian mode which is again different.
Feel free to pm me.
Chord VI is the relative minor to the tonic.
So in C, A is the relative minor, in F D is the relative minor etc.
Not only are those 4 chords used but on many occasions even in the same order!
https://youtu.be/oOlDewpCfZQ
Note: Harmonic minor for chordal progressions and melodic minor for the melody.
The natural minor is also the aeolian mode which is again different.
Feel free to pm me.
Edited by Simes205 on Thursday 25th October 23:42
cherryowen said:
Simes205 said:
cherryowen said:
Just to add my 2PW into the mix, I'm not (and never have been) a "fan" of Beatles tunes. I can't explain why; I knew they were well crafted songs played to the best of their ability, and their ability playing their instruments is somewhat under-rated I think. McCartney's bass lines are very accomplished and his acoustic work on "Blackbird" equally so.
However, over the last few months I've been getting into music theory to try and spice up my guitar playing. A common theme is, "The Beatles did this quite commonly" with regard to musical thinking. Much of it is rooted in classical music, believe it or not.
One example is called a Plagal Chord Shift (!!!). I'd never heard of it until a few months ago. Say you're playing in the key of A major; a popular chord progression would be A / D/ E with each chord being played for one measure of four bars in 4/4 time. So it goes A (four beats per bar), D (four beat per bar), E (same beats), back to D (same beats) resolving back to the "root" chord of A. Now, A, D and E together sound very jolly and "happy" so to tone the "happiness" down what The Beatles would often do is - in bar 3 - play two beats of D major, then two beats of D minor before resolving back to A major.
Another one they did was a "Mediant Third" where the first chord would be - say- A major, but the next chord would be a minor third i.e. C minor. So the tune starts of "happy" then immediately sounds "forlorn" so to speak.
Very clever to apply this sort of stuff into popular music.
I’ve never heard of a plagal chord shift but there is a plagal cadence which is IV to I, or based in A the last two chord of the phrase would be D to A (amen cadence).However, over the last few months I've been getting into music theory to try and spice up my guitar playing. A common theme is, "The Beatles did this quite commonly" with regard to musical thinking. Much of it is rooted in classical music, believe it or not.
One example is called a Plagal Chord Shift (!!!). I'd never heard of it until a few months ago. Say you're playing in the key of A major; a popular chord progression would be A / D/ E with each chord being played for one measure of four bars in 4/4 time. So it goes A (four beats per bar), D (four beat per bar), E (same beats), back to D (same beats) resolving back to the "root" chord of A. Now, A, D and E together sound very jolly and "happy" so to tone the "happiness" down what The Beatles would often do is - in bar 3 - play two beats of D major, then two beats of D minor before resolving back to A major.
Another one they did was a "Mediant Third" where the first chord would be - say- A major, but the next chord would be a minor third i.e. C minor. So the tune starts of "happy" then immediately sounds "forlorn" so to speak.
Very clever to apply this sort of stuff into popular music.
You’re right about A, D and E being rooted in classical harmony, think A being chord I, D IV and E V, these are the primary chords and pretty much most popular music are rooted around these three, they are major chords and use all the notes of the major scale you add using. Chord II and III (mediant) and VI are minor.
Eleanor Rigby has some nice interesting chord progressions.
O/T : You mention the I / IV / V chord progression as the basis of popular music. These days, I discovered recently, a huge amount of chart tunes use a combination of I / IV / V / vi (so, in the key of C major it's C / F / G / Am) . Easy. The interesting stuff is writing in a minor key, especially harmonic minor.
singlecoil said:
For an example of their extraordinary inventiveness one need listen no further than the twin lead guitars on And Your Bird Can Sing. I've yet to hear anything like it anywhere else.
Yes. The arpeggiated chromatic passage and a recurring arabesque in parallel thirds. (according to Ian MacDonald)!
For years I've been pointing out certain chord progressions, lyrical oddities and melodic shifts to my friends in the many groups and artists I've come to love with that smugness that comes from certain discovery. And now I'm going through the Beatles back catalogue it turns out they did all this stuff first, long before anybody else.
There are bands I've spent 40 years loving only to find a single Beatles track that seems to have been the inspiration for everything they ever did. I can hear just about every song and production trick that all my favourite artists produced in a single song!
I'm very aware that I may be over doing this but f
k I'm enjoying myself! I honestly didn't listen to this stuff before and I'm being swallowed up!
Rubber Soul is on constant repeat at the moment and even after a lifetime of drowning in a cornucopia of musical styles and genres I'm struggling to think of anything better than this.
There are bands I've spent 40 years loving only to find a single Beatles track that seems to have been the inspiration for everything they ever did. I can hear just about every song and production trick that all my favourite artists produced in a single song!
I'm very aware that I may be over doing this but f
k I'm enjoying myself! I honestly didn't listen to this stuff before and I'm being swallowed up!Rubber Soul is on constant repeat at the moment and even after a lifetime of drowning in a cornucopia of musical styles and genres I'm struggling to think of anything better than this.
br d said:
For years I've been pointing out certain chord progressions, lyrical oddities and melodic shifts to my friends in the many groups and artists I've come to love with that smugness that comes from certain discovery. And now I'm going through the Beatles back catalogue it turns out they did all this stuff first, long before anybody else.
There are bands I've spent 40 years loving only to find a single Beatles track that seems to have been the inspiration for everything they ever did. I can hear just about every song and production trick that all my favourite artists produced in a single song!
I'm very aware that I may be over doing this but fk I'm enjoying myself! I honestly didn't listen to this stuff before and I'm being swallowed up!
Rubber Soul is on constant repeat at the moment and even after a lifetime of drowning in a cornucopia of musical styles and genres I'm struggling to think of anything better than this.
It’s greaf isn’t it!There are bands I've spent 40 years loving only to find a single Beatles track that seems to have been the inspiration for everything they ever did. I can hear just about every song and production trick that all my favourite artists produced in a single song!
I'm very aware that I may be over doing this but f
k I'm enjoying myself! I honestly didn't listen to this stuff before and I'm being swallowed up!Rubber Soul is on constant repeat at the moment and even after a lifetime of drowning in a cornucopia of musical styles and genres I'm struggling to think of anything better than this.
If you start to analyse JS Bach (1685-1750) you’ll find he was doing it before them!!!
The Beatles (George Martin) were certainly one of the first to be this inventive, along with Bryan Wilson. The Beatles have been on the A level music syllabus to analyse for over 25 years so it must be worthy!
Well I'm glad Simes205 mentioned Brian Wilson because if anyone asks me who I consider to be the greatest band of all time, I have to reply that my heart says the Beatles, but my head says the Beach Boys.
Think about it: the Beatles contract with EMI called for 4 singles and 2 albums per year. however, the BB's contract with Capitol called for FOUR ALBUMS per year! And while I appreciate that a) US albums always contained less tracks than UK ones, and b) there was a lot of filler there, even so it was an incredible achievement when you consider that Brian was writing all the songs himself.
Think about it: the Beatles contract with EMI called for 4 singles and 2 albums per year. however, the BB's contract with Capitol called for FOUR ALBUMS per year! And while I appreciate that a) US albums always contained less tracks than UK ones, and b) there was a lot of filler there, even so it was an incredible achievement when you consider that Brian was writing all the songs himself.
Completely coincidental, a Waterboys video popped up on my YT feed earlier (I love their work for learning folk guitar), and have a look at this:-
https://youtu.be/87bq3StT6-o?t=426
"Paul McCartney wrote the sweetest melodies"
And
If you listen to "Blackbird", written by PMcC (bearing in mind he was a bass player), the tune is "sort of" Travis picking but not quite. Travis picking is bloody tricky at the best of times, let alone modifying it.
https://youtu.be/87bq3StT6-o?t=426
"Paul McCartney wrote the sweetest melodies"
And
If you listen to "Blackbird", written by PMcC (bearing in mind he was a bass player), the tune is "sort of" Travis picking but not quite. Travis picking is bloody tricky at the best of times, let alone modifying it.
DickyC said:
Brian was writing all the songs himself.
That's not how I remember it.
Beach Boy beard required.
Had a shave but, On BB songs that didn't involve other songwriters Brian Wison composed all the music and melodies. Mike Love wrote the lyrics sometimes assisted by Al Jardine. He and Dennis Wilson composed some BB songs writing alone. Peter Asher of Peter and Gordon fame also contributed.That's not how I remember it.
Beach Boy beard required.
Many BB songs were composed by other well known writers of the time. The BB also recorded covers of well known songs.
Gassing Station | Music | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff